Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thieving Magpie · 01-15-2003, 07:25 PM

Dr. Rick:

quote:
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Originally posted by Thieving Magpie
My, oh my, Dr. Rick... I never once stated a preference for a lack of rational thought.
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You expressed a preference when you posted: "It can be difficult for an adult to have faith like a child, but never the less, it is the ideal that Christians ought to pursue"
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I meant that it was not a personal preferance. I still believe that 'it is the ideal that Christians ought to pursue' if they want to continue to be Christians. I did not make this clear, so I apologise.

quote:
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I am not a Christian, and so, am not held to any such belief, by myself, or any other.
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You were expousing an argument for faith over rational thought; what you believe is not the issue.
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I believe I was confused over this point as well, as you probably realized.

quote:
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My argument was this: Rational thought and faith often do not coexist, so most people have to pick one over the other.
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You argued what Christians "ought to" do, not what their choices are.
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Did I not? I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere, in one of these posts. If I didn't then I suppose I didn't.

quote:
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Christians must pick faith because things such as God cannot be rationally proven (either yet, or at all).
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That is not true: many of the atheists posting here, including myself, were once Christians that chose rational thought over faith. We became athiests once we started thinking rationally, so Christians don't have to pick faith as you insist they must.
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I also meant that this was true under the assumption that they wanted to continue to be Christians.

quote:
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Christians who try to have a mixture of both rational thought and faith in order to explain their religion are worse at being Christians than those who rely entirely on faith.
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So?
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quote:
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Adults doubt, and that is okay, but it is just another way that a Christian may say that they sin (this certainly isn't always the case, but, never the less). A less deficient Christian would doubt less. There are obviously intelligent Christians out there, but if they choose not to doubt, and to have faith in their beliefs then they are better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt (I am not referring to particular denominations).
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That's a strawman; we aren't arguing what makes "better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt"
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This is the reason I began writing about faith in this thread to begin with. I was not only replying to your post, Dr. Rick, but also to Philosoft's and BlondeGoddess'. I did not make any specific distinctions in my reply, as I assumed that if they read my post then they would know I was talking to them as well as you. I am sorry that I did not make that clearer.

quote:
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Jesus himself praised children for their simple, unadultered faith, and held them up as a model for all adults.
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That may not be true, as there is ample reason to doubt that Jesus ever existed or that what he said was accurately recorded decades after he supposedly lived, but even if it is true, so what?
-----------------------------------------------------

What you say is true, but irrelevant for my purposes, because I am making an argument that is based upon certain assumptions. If someone has faith that Jesus existed, and that the Bible is entirely true as a historical record, as Christians ought to, then they ought to also recognize 'simple, unadultered faith' as a corner stone of any seriously practising Christian who wishes to continue being a seriously practising Christian.

Anyway, thank you for your thorough response.

Radorth · 01-15-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

You are wrong. I loved God. I worshipped Him with all of my heart. I was saved. I know I was, but I never felt the assurance of it. All my life, since hearing it from the preacher's pulpit, I knew I was destined for hell.

So you knew you were saved, and you knew you were destined for hell.

BG, can you see why someone might have questions here? I think I know now why you "burned out" on Christianity.

Rad

Thieving Magpie · 01-15-2003, 07:49 PM

Oh, one more thing...

I have no intention of 'heaping guilt' upon BlondeGoddess. This particular line of posts is directed towards a certain notion that I thought I saw raised in the thread which was that "if BlondeGoddess was losing faith, then she must have never been a 'True Christian.' " On this note, I do not necessarily agree, but I can understand that IF Christianity is right, then she would not have been among THE BEST Christians out there, which is a claim she seems to have made.

I encourage BlondeGoddess to go down the path she is pursuing, but I also do not think that it is necessarily very fair of her to say 'I did my best, and God did nothing' because one, or both of those paraphrased statements could be wrong. That is the only thing to which I was replying.

Celsus · 01-15-2003, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
And I still see nothing to show you ever had a personal relationship with him. Now you are talking about all your good works. Joel, if it ever occurs to you he was more interested in an intimate relationship with you than all your good works, you will be born again IN FACT.

Radorth. You are not in a position to psychoanalyse me. What you are asking is firstly, too personal for me to go into, and secondly, your Bible says that "By their fruits you will know them." There is no way to "prove" I had a personal relationship without revealing my entire life to all and sundry. Considering what a twit you've been, I have no desire to do so either.

Quote:

You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ... For just as a body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. James 2:24,26

The examples I gave was how my life manifested itself to me. The verse in James was how I interpreted my life at that point. Hypocritical christians who wanted to sit on their lazy asses and not do good are generally the ones who insist only on faith. In fact, both are insufficient. Your desperate attempts to cling to your definitions, resulting in making insulting assumptions about deconverted people's lives, are really poor conduct for a "True Christian".

Here's another verse you should bear in mind, considering your conduct here:

Quote:

For the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died. 2 Corinthians 5:14

If the love of Christ was controlling you, then I doubt you'd be acting like a complete twit. But never mind me. Your Bible has some choice words for people like yourself:

Quote:

So it is not strange if [Satan's] servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. 2 Corinthians 11:15

But fortunately, that just means I think you're a troll, considering how insulting you've been. If you have anything further to say, start a new thread. This is one is for blondegoddess (with great apologies to her for sidetracking her thread).

Joel

01-15-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BibleBelted
I don't know why I didn't think of that!

It's all so perfectly clear now.

Thanks, I thought it would be obvious.

01-15-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
Hi blondegoddess,

Best of luck to you.

Please don't wish her luck if she needs to be set free through understanding.

Dr Rick · 01-15-2003, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
I still see nothing to show you ever had a personal relationship with [God].

You have shown nothing of the sort, either.

Quote:

Now you are talking about all your good works. Joel, if it ever occurs to you he was more interested in an intimate relationship with you than all your good works, you will be born again IN FACT.

So what horrors one perpetrates upon the rest of us is not as important as what one irrationally believes? Joel's "intimacy" with god means more than what he does? Joel will IN FACT be "born again" if he just re-directs his "intimate" interests even if he acts in a cruel manner?!

Quote:

It just amazes me how people relate good works to salvation, but I suppose must blame the church for that. Oops, I guess I "heaped guilt" on Joel now.

It's amazing how some people relate faith to salvation

Quote:

confused: Rad

Yes, you are.

Dr Rick · 01-15-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Please don't wish her luck if she needs to be set free through understanding.

Why not? What does it matter to a Christian?

Rick

01-15-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
So you knew you were saved, and you knew you were destined for hell.

BG, can you see why someone might have questions here? I think I know now why you "burned out" on Christianity.

Rad

Hello Rad, the common problem with the quote below from blondegoddess is the absense of faith in the heart: Romans 10:10 "Faith in the heart leads to justification, confession from the lips to salvation" (William Woodworths' "timely uttering."
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You are wrong. I loved God. I worshipped Him with all of my heart. I was saved. I know I was, but I never felt the assurance of it. All my life, since hearing it from the preacher's pulpit, I knew I was destined for hell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How do you define faith in the heart? "[when] another will tie you fast and carry you off against your own will" (Jn. 21-18b). In other words without carnal desire and therefore without the sinners prayer (Jn.1:13).

Radorth · 01-15-2003, 08:27 PM

Quote:

So what horrors one perpetrates upon the rest of us is not as important as what one irrationally believes? Joel's "intimacy" with god means more than what he does? Joel will IN FACT be "born again" if he just re-directs his "intimate" interests even if he acts in a cruel manner?!

Huh? I don't understand your question(s), but I'd be happy to answer if you can rephrase. The questions sound leading, as well.

Rad

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01-15-2003, 07:25 PM	#131
Thieving Magpie Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 253	Dr. Rick: quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Thieving Magpie My, oh my, Dr. Rick... I never once stated a preference for a lack of rational thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You expressed a preference when you posted: "It can be difficult for an adult to have faith like a child, but never the less, it is the ideal that Christians ought to pursue" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I meant that it was not a personal preferance. I still believe that 'it is the ideal that Christians ought to pursue' if they want to continue to be Christians. I did not make this clear, so I apologise. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am not a Christian, and so, am not held to any such belief, by myself, or any other. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You were expousing an argument for faith over rational thought; what you believe is not the issue. ------------------------------------------------ I believe I was confused over this point as well, as you probably realized. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ My argument was this: Rational thought and faith often do not coexist, so most people have to pick one over the other. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ You argued what Christians "ought to" do, not what their choices are. ------------------------------------------------------- Did I not? I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere, in one of these posts. If I didn't then I suppose I didn't. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christians must pick faith because things such as God cannot be rationally proven (either yet, or at all). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That is not true: many of the atheists posting here, including myself, were once Christians that chose rational thought over faith. We became athiests once we started thinking rationally, so Christians don't have to pick faith as you insist they must. ------------------------------------- I also meant that this was true under the assumption that they wanted to continue to be Christians. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christians who try to have a mixture of both rational thought and faith in order to explain their religion are worse at being Christians than those who rely entirely on faith. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So? ------------------------------ quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Adults doubt, and that is okay, but it is just another way that a Christian may say that they sin (this certainly isn't always the case, but, never the less). A less deficient Christian would doubt less. There are obviously intelligent Christians out there, but if they choose not to doubt, and to have faith in their beliefs then they are better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt (I am not referring to particular denominations). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That's a strawman; we aren't arguing what makes "better Christians IN THE MATTER OF FAITH than those who do doubt" -------------------------------------------- This is the reason I began writing about faith in this thread to begin with. I was not only replying to your post, Dr. Rick, but also to Philosoft's and BlondeGoddess'. I did not make any specific distinctions in my reply, as I assumed that if they read my post then they would know I was talking to them as well as you. I am sorry that I did not make that clearer. quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jesus himself praised children for their simple, unadultered faith, and held them up as a model for all adults. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ That may not be true, as there is ample reason to doubt that Jesus ever existed or that what he said was accurately recorded decades after he supposedly lived, but even if it is true, so what? ----------------------------------------------------- What you say is true, but irrelevant for my purposes, because I am making an argument that is based upon certain assumptions. If someone has faith that Jesus existed, and that the Bible is entirely true as a historical record, as Christians ought to, then they ought to also recognize 'simple, unadultered faith' as a corner stone of any seriously practising Christian who wishes to continue being a seriously practising Christian. Anyway, thank you for your thorough response.

01-15-2003, 07:49 PM	#133
Thieving Magpie Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 253	Oh, one more thing... I have no intention of 'heaping guilt' upon BlondeGoddess. This particular line of posts is directed towards a certain notion that I thought I saw raised in the thread which was that "if BlondeGoddess was losing faith, then she must have never been a 'True Christian.' " On this note, I do not necessarily agree, but I can understand that IF Christianity is right, then she would not have been among THE BEST Christians out there, which is a claim she seems to have made. I encourage BlondeGoddess to go down the path she is pursuing, but I also do not think that it is necessarily very fair of her to say 'I did my best, and God did nothing' because one, or both of those paraphrased statements could be wrong. That is the only thing to which I was replying.

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