Hobbs

I was going to address this, but I preferred to keep my previous post short, and I figured you'd bring it up, anyway. Having been a born-again, bible-believing Christian, I think I can say that I understand where you are coming from, and I expected a response something like this.

The one place you can critique my brief argument above is in the premise that there are atheists who aren't miserable. Not to deny that they are such, but to say they really shouldn't be and wouldn't be if they were consistent with their (lack of) beliefs. But this critique begs the question, i.e. it depends on the claim that this Christian world-view is true, which is precisely what is at issue.

Why does that follow? Why does it follow from the fact that nothing we do now Means anything to The Universe At The End Of Time that therefore nothing means anything to us now?

I, for one, don't claim that I invent my meaning. Things mean stuff, and mean stuff to me, as well as to others, and I am cognitively capable of recognizing that fact.

For a tree, a lack of rain, or weather that is too cold, means that the tree will have a hard time surviving. It really does mean that. No rain for too long means the tree will die. The tree is not cognitively capable of recognizing that fact, but it is still a fact. For me, various circumstances are beneficial or harmful to me. They really are; some (as with the tree) objectively and some (unlike the tree, which lacks subjectivity) subjectively. My actions have real consequences, both objective and subjective, for me and for others. I don't choose that my acts have consequences, nor do I choose what consequences my acts have. I don't choose what those consequeces mean for me or others. I just recognize (to the best I can determine) what they do in fact mean, and choose accordingly. And I recognize that though those consequences do not matter, they mean nothing to, The Universe, I also recognize that it does not follow from this that they don't mean anything to me.

I like life. I like living. It doesn't matter that I won't matter to the universe at the end of time. That fact does nothing to negate the fact that I really am real now and that I matter to me now, and to family and friends I care about and on whom I depend for my own well-being. I would prefer that there were a God to whom I mattered. It would be nice if what I do mattered to The Universe, or to others besides me and my family and friends. But wishing doesn't make it so. And life, to me anyway, is plenty worthwhile to me even if it means nothing to The Universe At The End Of Time.

I can see how someone would be a nihilist if it were really important to him that The Universe cares about him when he realizes that it doesn't. For that matter, I know people for whom life has lost all meaning and they have become essentially nihilists when spurned by a girlfriend or boyfriend, i.e. when they stopped mattering to or meaning anything to some other person (I even know of a couple of suicides resulting from such occurrences). But I'm not like that. It doesn't bother me that I don't matter to The Universe. So, I don't think I'm being at all inconsistent in being an atheist who is not a nihilist.

I can fly on my own without a magical feather, real or imaginary.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

Starboy

kingjames1:

I would hope that by now you would realize that the only thing you can assume about an atheist is that they posses no belief in god(s). Because we reject the group think of religions such as Christianity means that each of us has come by our understanding of the universe in our own unique way. Characterizing our thoughts as atheology is absurd. Although it is something that is not uncommon for a Christian to spout. Try to get a grip on reality man.

Starboy

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

babelfish

The Bible: An excellent book about God's unchanging, absolute morality.

OT - Kill thy neighbor

NT - Love thy neighbor

OT - An eye for an eye

NT - Turn the other cheek

OT - Sacrificing animals is so important that I will give you step-by-step, detailed instructions as to how to go about it.

NT - Okay, you can now stop sacrificing animals, I've sacrificed my son!

Sheesh!

Hobbs

OT: Do NOT forget the Sabbath, and to remember to keep it holy, or you'll be in BIG TROUBLE!

NT: Some people treat some days as more special than others, other people treat them all the same; whatever, it's fine, as long as you're sincere.

Hobbs

Paul: You are saved through faith, not by works.

James: You are justified by works, not by faith only.

Infinity Lover

SHit!

I'm too late to add humerous answers to the o.p. now aren't I

kingjames1

Hobbs, thanks for the thoughtful response...
I'd like to respond later, when I have more time to offer you a thoughtful reply in turn.

J.

kingjames1

Daemon, first let me say that I am glad that you 'value' being civil! I do too, and apologize if any of my statements were out of line (another value statement).

Your distinction regarding 'value subjectivists' and objectivists is very helpful. Thanks for the clarification...

I do have some questions, however, regarding the coherence of that system as well. In particular, it seems to me that most linguists and philosophers of language agree that meaning is more than simply subjective. Meaning/language/religion/etc., etc. is communal and social, not merely individual. In fact, L. Wittgenstein went so far as to claim that there is no such thing as private meaning (i.e. language was so much a social praxis, that it could not be said to be private in any true sense). I'm not sure I agree with this conclusion, but I do think his case for language as a social phenomenon and hence religious/philosophical meaning as culturally embedded is a strong one.

Here's a cutesy jab, though: how can objective meaning be meaningless?

I'd like to respond more when i have more time.

thanks for the thoughts,

J.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: kingjames1 ]</p>

Goliath

kingjames1,

You have no idea what atheism is. Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is absolutely nothing more than a lack of belief that any gods exist.

For example, here is the complete and total list of beliefs that I hold regarding the supernatural and the origin of the universe:

Nothing.

So, any attempts to find "implications of atheist beliefs" will fail from the get-go, because there are no atheist beliefs.

Also, you seem to be equating atheism with metaphysical naturalism. These two things have nothing to do with each other.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Sandy

Believe the bible and you too can pretend to have all the answers...&lt;i.e. gawddidit&gt;.


Better late than never.