Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pangloss · 07-30-2002, 05:53 AM

My, my - a few comments:

Quote:

This is a specious conclusion as best, and a blatant scientific fraud at worst.

Creationists are fond of writing such slanderous hyperbole, shame that they never seem to be able to justify their position. Perhaps you can be the first?

As for the quote from creationist electrical engineer Fred Williams' article, well, when creationists have to go to electrical engineers - especially one that believes that the ancient Hebrews knew all about bacteria because they are told to wash the tapestries in the home of the leper - to get information on genetics, you know they are in a tough spot.

As for Haldane, Williams and his handler, also an electrical engineer Walter ReMine, premise their entire argument on absolutely nothing but their personal disbeliefs.

From ReMine's foolish book, "The Biotic Message":

“Take an ape-like creature from 10 million years ago, substitute a maximum of 500,000 selectively significant nucleotides and would you have a poet philosopher? What does that sound like to you?” (p.209)

“Think about it again. Is 1,667 selectively significant nucleotides enough to make a sapien out of a simian?” (p. 217)

For these, he provides not a single supporting document. Not one. I have personally asked him, and I know dozens of others have asked as well, for some verifiable support for these contentions, and he has offered NOT ONE example. Never.

Williams, like all creationists, simply glosses over, ignores, or blows off anything to the contrary of their position.

As for the peppered moth business, some discussion has arisen because in the public photos, the moths were glued to tree trunks.

Fraud! Fraud the creationists cry! That doesn't happen in Nature, so it is wrong to draw conclusions from any such thing!

So sayeth Jon Wells, HIV-denier, follower of Rev.Moon.

Wells has a whopping two scientifiic papers under his belt.
In them, cytoplasm is removed from Xenopus eggs, and what happens is described.

Fraud! Fraud I say!

The cytoplasm of Xenopus eggs is NOT removed in Nature, therefore, any conclusions drawn from such experiments are fraudulent!

pangloss · 07-30-2002, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFoard:
quoting YEC enbineer Williams:

"Surely 1667 is not enough to make a man out of a hairy, armpit-scratchin, dung throwin' ancestor! Evolutionists need to add about another 1000 trillion years to their cake mix just to get an ape with manners!"

Well, I guess not! If a young earth creationist electrical engineer has this on his personal website, it MUST be true! I mean, look at all the supporting documentation he provides for his above claim:

Quote:

...

(this last written by John Creeper, B.A.,B.Ed.,Dip.T.,Grad.Dip.R.Ed.,Dip.L.Ed. )

This post was written by SL Page, H.S.D., A.S., B.S., PhD., BMF, MMs, Esq.

hezekiah jones · 07-30-2002, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JFoard:
... here <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp" target="_blank">Natural Selection</a>
(this last written by John Creeper, B.A.,B.Ed.,Dip.T.,Grad.Dip.R.Ed.,Dip.L.Ed. )

Quote:

So I went in and saw; and behold every form of creeping things, and abominable beasts - Ezekiel 8:10

KC · 07-30-2002, 07:14 AM

I was interested in seeing of JFoard could intelligently discuss Haldane's work, or if he was just regurgitating ReMine. Pangloss and I have confronted ReMine himself over his understanding of Haldane's original papers, and got nothing but wildly incorrect assertions and then..well..silence.

Cheers,

KC

pangloss · 07-30-2002, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KCdgw:
<strong>I was interested in seeing of JFoard could intelligently discuss Haldane's work, or if he was just regurgitating ReMine. Pangloss and I have confronted ReMine himself over his understanding of Haldane's original papers, and got nothing but wildly incorrect assertions and then..well..silence.

Cheers,

KC</strong>

Not entirely true - I did get one thing...

Banned from ARN....

gravitybow · 07-30-2002, 05:28 PM

JFoard:
You wouldn't mind editing out the extra periods and commas on the end of your links so that they actually work, would you?

gallo · 07-30-2002, 08:56 PM

Dr. Page,

I am hurt beyond words. In you list of qualifications (H.S.D., A.S., B.S., PhD., BMF, MMs, Esq.) you failed to claim your D.Cre.Sci.Ed. degree from By Bayou U. As I recall, you "earned" your doctorate from BBU before your PhD. And just think. In the evolution/creationism debate, which degree is more meaningful - a legit degree from an accredited university, or a bogus degree in an unrelated field?

dr_gallo, H.S.D., A.A., B.S., B.A., M.S., M.A., D.Cre.Sci.Ed., D.MPhys.Ed. (the last two, in the tradition of great "creation scientists" such as Kent Hovind, Carl Baugh, and Don Patton, are self conferred).

gravitybow · 07-30-2002, 09:53 PM

Quote:

JFoard boasts:
If plain spoken logic won't convince you and you want more data, then here <a href="http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm," target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm,</a> and here <a href="http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml," target="_blank">http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml,</a> and here <a href="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM" target="_blank">http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM</a> and here <a href="http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3" target="_blank">http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3</a>
and here <a href="http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm." target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm.</a>
and here <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp</a> and here <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp</a> (this last written by John Creeper, B.A.,B.Ed.,Dip.T.,Grad.Dip.R.Ed.,Dip.L.Ed. )
Many of these sites are written by well established scientists, so please don't go making some fawning appeal that I haven't provided you with any data.

Nothing could be plainer than that you are pulling the wool over our eyes with regards to the number of scientists implied by the list of sites you give. Did you think that no one here would actually check these sites for the "scientists" involved? Let's see just how many scientists there are. Here are the corrected links:
<a href="http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm" target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml</a>
<a href="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM" target="_blank">http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM</a>
<a href="http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3" target="_blank">http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3</a>
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp</a>
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp</a>

Hmmmmm. Seven links. Potentially seven well-established scientists. Let's start with the last one, since it's the one you actually give a name for:

Quote:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/v6n4_moth.asp (this last written by John Creeper, B.A.,B.Ed.,Dip.T.,Grad.Dip.R.Ed.,Dip.L.Ed. )

My, my. What an impressive alphabet soup Mr. Creeper has behind his name. He must be awfully proud of all those credentials to post them so. Pardon my ignorance, but would you mind terribly much interpreting some of those credentials for me? I've never heard some of them. I'm not exactly sure which one of those actually makes him a scientist deluxe. If you could just point out the one, that will do.
And as for his being well-established....I think my Google search is on the blink. I can't seem to get any returns on the copious amount of scientific data that Mr....Dr.???...Creeper has produced. Perhaps you could also be of some assistance in this area as well.

Or, I could just save you the time and say that Mr. Creeper is neither well established nor a scientist (alphabet soup aside).

Next we have:
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp" target="_blank">http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4105.asp</a>
The by-line says "Carl Wieland." As fortune would have it, we can click on Wieland's name to reveal:

Quote:

Dr Carl Wieland
Creationist Medical Doctor
(AiG Australia)

....Although his formal qualifications are in medicine and surgery, Carl has not practised in the medical profession since 1986....

Honors/Awards/Associations
Past president of the Christian Medical Fellowship of South Australia

Ouch, JFoard! Dr. Carl Wieland is not only "not a scientist", he's no longer a practicing physician. What's more, his past and present professional scientific associations are zero! Yet, he currently claims to be a Creationist Medical Doctor. What is that?

JFoard, your list of "well-established scientists" is beginning to dwindle.

Oh, but you're going to love this next part. Let's just ax them in one fell swoop, shall we? Here goes:

<a href="http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm" target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/wellsmillermoth041702.htm</a>
by Jonathan Wells
<a href="http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.tsoup.org/id2.shtml</a>
all citations given are Jonathan Wells
<a href="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM" target="_blank">http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ104.HTM</a>
"compiled from several older papers" and "uploaded by Dave Armstrong on 7 June 2002 from older papers."
<a href="http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3" target="_blank">http://www.iconsofevolution.com/articles.php3</a>
a list of articles by Jonathan Wells
<a href="http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm" target="_blank">http://members.tripod.com/aslodge/id83.htm</a>
Jonathan Wells May 1, 2002

C'mon, JFoard, this is pathetic. Out of the five remaining articles you posted by "well-established scientists", only one of them does not have Jonathan Wells as its primary source. And the one you gave for Dave Armstrong isn't even about the topic at hand! It's a bunch of philosophical ramblings with no data in it. Scratch Dave Armstrong from the list.

Quote:

recap of JFoard's boast:
Many of these sites are written by well established scientists, so please don't go making some fawning appeal that I haven't provided you with any data.

OK. Then, may I make a fawning appeal that you provide some sites that have some "well-established scientists" in them? You have grossly overstated your case, JFoard. You now have only one candidate left for "well-established scientist"...

...Jonathan Wells

Oh, boy. I'm afraid Wells is going to have to wait for another post since it's late here. But let me give you a heads up on my next post: Dr. Wells is a poor excuse for a scientist whose research ability rivals your own. (Of course, I won't mind if some of the regulars want to get in a few licks on Doc Wells before I get to him.

)

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: gravitybow ]</p>

Albion · 07-31-2002, 12:14 AM

Lick Dr Wells? Yuck. He's under discussion on the Dembski/Mike Gene thread, though.

Daggah · 07-31-2002, 03:24 AM

Anyone had a look at JFoard's website, "The Darwin Papers?" A cursory glance will quickly reveal that we are NOT dealing with an honest fella here guys. He actually defends the "Lady Hope" lie about Darwin converting and recanting on his death bed! That's only one example of the dishonesty you'll find there...

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07-30-2002, 07:14 AM	#24
KC Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Narcisco, RRR Posts: 527	I was interested in seeing of JFoard could intelligently discuss Haldane's work, or if he was just regurgitating ReMine. Pangloss and I have confronted ReMine himself over his understanding of Haldane's original papers, and got nothing but wildly incorrect assertions and then..well..silence. Cheers, KC

07-30-2002, 05:28 PM	#26
gravitybow Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Washington, NC Posts: 1,696	JFoard: You wouldn't mind editing out the extra periods and commas on the end of your links so that they actually work, would you?

07-30-2002, 08:56 PM	#27
gallo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, TX, US Posts: 244	Dr. Page, I am hurt beyond words. In you list of qualifications (H.S.D., A.S., B.S., PhD., BMF, MMs, Esq.) you failed to claim your D.Cre.Sci.Ed. degree from By Bayou U. As I recall, you "earned" your doctorate from BBU before your PhD. And just think. In the evolution/creationism debate, which degree is more meaningful - a legit degree from an accredited university, or a bogus degree in an unrelated field? dr_gallo, H.S.D., A.A., B.S., B.A., M.S., M.A., D.Cre.Sci.Ed., D.MPhys.Ed. (the last two, in the tradition of great "creation scientists" such as Kent Hovind, Carl Baugh, and Don Patton, are self conferred).

07-31-2002, 12:14 AM	#29
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	Lick Dr Wells? Yuck. He's under discussion on the Dembski/Mike Gene thread, though.

07-31-2002, 03:24 AM	#30
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Anyone had a look at JFoard's website, "The Darwin Papers?" A cursory glance will quickly reveal that we are NOT dealing with an honest fella here guys. He actually defends the "Lady Hope" lie about Darwin converting and recanting on his death bed! That's only one example of the dishonesty you'll find there...

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