Freethought & Rationalism Archive

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie
I think its fairly obvious. Limiting the potential to have wonderful loving people in ones life based on the fact they hold a God belief. I would say the same thing to a Christian refusing to allow atheists in their lives, they are limiting themself.
God. You don't but many do, such is life...
Grow up!

Amie, I dont intend to have children but if I do I will raise them as metaphysical naturalists. Lets say I meet you we go out, I know that you are a xian and later on down the road we get married and have children. How are you going to want those children raised, as a metaphysical naturalist or an xian. Even more to the point as time goes on, how can you look at an atheist husband on not fear for his future, as he is probably going to burn in hell? You wouldnt want to change his mind for his own good? That is my point.

On a personal level I find evangelical xians to be kind of irritating and people things on faith to be hopelessly misled by that old book. I am limiting my potential dating pool, but I also wouldnt date crack whores, (although someone who is a prostitute or in the porn industry is not out of the question) communists, extreme feminists that argue that all men are rapists and sexists. I am ok with limiting my dating pool. Sometimes it sucks ass, but I think that on the whole its a good idea.

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
Beyelzu... still there ? I agree with Amie that as nice as a guy you seem to be, it will not be fair on christian women! Anyways... it is so alien to me that you could make the choice to not pursue a relationship with a woman because she is a christian. I can think of other reasons why we are going to set our limits in terms of intimacy with someone else.. for me for example, I had to set my limits to never again be involved with an alcoholic or a man caught in an addictive personality pattern which alterates his potential. But that is for self preservation. Because it can be very destructive for me as I know I tend to be a "rescuer" and I would become co dependent rapidly. I can think of setting limits to avoid relationships with abusive people whether it is physical or emotional no matter how attractive or intelligent they may be.
Beyelzu... what if you are treated decently, valued and appreciated ( and mostly needed) by a woman who happens to be a christian? should not the way the person will relate to you and treat you and value you be more important than their belief?
Is that to say that an atheist woman or agnostic will automaticaly treat you and value you better than a christian woman?
My hubby not only never considered marriage as an option for his wellbeing ( he was 51 when he married me) ( and it is certainly not the lack of great opportunities from his past relationships with women who kept him from ever marrying), but he insured he would never be a father and on the top of it all never considered having an involved relationship with a christian woman... and even more... a Frenchy!
There he is at the "golden" age, swept off from his feet by a christian woman, and step dad of three kids! so to say " fountain I shall never drink of your water" can easily be overturned by the reality of meeting the unexpected mate who completes you and makes you whole.
On my side, I already knew what kind of man would be that special mate....he had to be able to connect emotionaly and intellectually with me and vice versa. He had to display goodness to others and have empathy for all. He had to be bold in his opinions and fight for great causes. He had to be a writer and musician is a plus. At no time would his spiritual walk be an obstacle to me. All the other stuff is so much more important.
My first hubby was a christian. If we connnected spiritualy, we were never compatible in all the other areas. And 19 years of trying so hard to be compatible makes your life miserable. At some point of time you set yourself free and the other person free and you move on....
So please keep your mind open to the possibility that a God believing woman may be the special mate to you.
I gather also you are in your mid twenties or so( please correct me if I am wrong). You will gain a different perspective on other people as you continue to mature. In any case, your needs will change with time. In any case, pick the woman who will make you want to be a better man....( borrowed from the character of Jack Nicholson in "As good as it gets").

I have tried dating xians in the past and it really hasnt worked out. Most sincere xians seem to want to save your soul, I dont believe in the soul so whats the point. I also would wince just a little bit everytime she goes to church to pray to a nonexistant god. I would feel bad for her because of her faith. I dont know if I am expressing myself very well. I can respect openminded people who arrive at conclusions logical, rationally, reasonably, since most xians dont fit this pattern, a relationship wouldnt work out.

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Fuck off shitty life. If it was really shitty you would not brag about it now. You despise religion because of what you see and I can agree with you there. But you don't really know first hand.

There is nothing wrong with your point of view but there is a difference between what you see and what some people were exposed to and that is the only point I wanted to make.

I dont define myself by my life up to when I was 13-15, when I started making all of my own decisions with an understanding of the consequences of my actions. I mentioned it in response to you. I also think that I identify with Kally because I have issues with my mother, I pretty much despise her, it's not for relgious reasons, but I do know what its like to not be close to parents.

You also said that I wasnt a hard core atheist. Which would, it seems to me, require quite an odd definition of hard core atheism. I never said that I had fundy parents and lived Kally's life, I do despise religion because of what I see. I may not know how shitty religion can make life in particular.

But before you can tell me that I didnt have a shitty life, you need to see your mother with two sliced wrists in a bath tub, like I did when I was 9-10 years old, until then you can go to hell amos.

HelenM · 02-09-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
But before you can tell me that I didnt have a shitty life, you need to see your mother with two sliced wrists in a bath tub, like I did when I was 9-10 years old, until then you can go to hell amos.

I'm sorry you had to see that as a child, Beyelzu

. Did your Mom survive?

Helen

RufusAtticus · 02-09-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rick
Many religions, Christianity among them, define morals and differentiate behavior and even thoughts as either "right" or "wrong."

Yes but there is no standard Christian moral code. Even the people who claim to be biblically based only do it after the fact. That is one of my problem with the question. It assumes that christians have some sort of moral that they justify using Genesis 3. The only one I could think of is "punish the children for the crimes of the parents." However, I yet to meet a Christian who'd agree with that. So it seems to me that this question is not only poorly formed, but it is debating a strawman.

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenM
I'm sorry you had to see that as a child, Beyelzu . Did your Mom survive?

Helen

yeah, she lived. The whole situation was pretty traumatic. me and my sister called 911 the paramedics got there, she refused medical attention, until one of them told her that when she passed out they would help her anyway. The whole thing really pisses me off, I loved her very much at the time. I dont think I will ever understand why she did it knowing that me and my sister were there.

Thanks for your concern Helen.

---Grady

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
Yes but there is no standard Christian moral code. Even the people who claim to be biblically based only do it after the fact. That is one of my problem with the question. It assumes that christians have some sort of moral that they justify using Genesis 3. The only one I could think of is "punish the children for the crimes of the parents." However, I yet to meet a Christian who'd agree with that. So it seems to me that this question is not only poorly formed, but it is debating a strawman.

I agree with you more or less. I think that genesis 3 is a good example that morality isnt god given. Which might be the whole point.

Mad Kally · 02-09-2003, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Beyelzu:
one of them told her that when she passed out they would help her anyway.

Being unconscious is implied consent. Sorry you had to see what your mom did.

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally
Being unconscious is implied consent. Sorry you had to see what your mom did.

yeah, it the whole thing sucked ass. I was just trying to point out that religious beliefs arent the only way a childhood can be really fucked up.

--Grady

HelenM · 02-09-2003, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beyelzu
yeah, she lived. The whole situation was pretty traumatic. me and my sister called 911 the paramedics got there, she refused medical attention, until one of them told her that when she passed out they would help her anyway. The whole thing really pisses me off, I loved her very much at the time. I dont think I will ever understand why she did it knowing that me and my sister were there.

Thanks for your concern Helen.

---Grady

I'm glad help reached her in time. I'm not surprised it was traumatic - I think it would have been for an adult - let alone for a child.

As to why she did it - I truly believe that a person who reaches the point where they will commit suicide has a 'broken mind', as it were - they cannot reason as a mentally health person would. They may be unable to think about the effect their actions would have on others, even their own children because all they can think about it how to stop the intense emotional pain they are in. Or, if they can think about others, they probably are overwhelmed with thoughts of what a burden/bad parent they are and how their loved ones/children would be better off without them.

So, in a sense I doubt she 'knew what she was doing' in the same way you could expect a mentally healthy person to be aware of the effects of their actions on those around them.

And, if she didn't seem particularly mentally ill to you, because she was mostly coping with life, well, maybe she was good at pretending to be ok. And also consider that despair can come and go in waves. It happens all the time, unfortunately, that people who seem ok, attempt suicide

Anyway I hope nothing I have said is inappropriate or insensitive. I haven't been through this myself so I can't claim to know how much it hurts.

take care
Helen

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