Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sandlewood · 07-19-2002, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Contradictions serve to illustrate the limitations upon the human intellect when it begins to contemplate matters absolutely outside the realm of human perception and conception.

It is interesting how far one will contort one�s thinking in order to sustain a presupposed belief. A contradiction is one on the fundamental aspects of human reasoning and logic. Something cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. You cannot throw out reasoning and still reason that a given claim is true.

Theists will so often argue that theism makes sense. But at some point, when it really, really doesn�t make sense, they will turn it around and say that theism is true precisely because it doesn�t make sense.

rainbow walking · 07-19-2002, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sandlewood:

It is interesting how far one will contort one�s thinking in order to sustain a presupposed belief. A contradiction is one on the fundamental aspects of human reasoning and logic. Something cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. You cannot throw out reasoning and still reason that a given claim is true.

Theists will so often argue that theism makes sense. But at some point, when it really, really doesn�t make sense, they will turn it around and say that theism is true precisely because it doesn�t make sense.

rw: Exactly!

Ryanfire · 07-19-2002, 12:32 PM

Quote:

It is interesting how far one will contort one�s thinking in order to sustain a presupposed belief. A contradiction is one on the fundamental aspects of human reasoning and logic. Something cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. You cannot throw out reasoning and still reason that a given claim is true.
Theists will so often argue that theism makes sense. But at some point, when it really, really doesn�t make sense, they will turn it around and say that theism is true precisely because it doesn�t make sense.

"Chewbacca does not make sense... If Chewbacca lives on endor you must aquit!"

Listen to this wav file for a good laugh.<a href="http://ryan.real.ca/ChewbaccaDefence.wav" target="_blank">Chewbacca Defence</a>

Perhaps David here could use the same defence for the existence of god.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ryanfire ]

wordsmyth · 07-19-2002, 02:22 PM

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David: I do not doubt that there are some Muslims who reject the Christian God, just as there are some Christians who reject Allah. Nonetheless, the Qur'an specifically and explicitly declares that Allah and the Christian God are the same:

You must be reading an entirely different passage than the one you just posted, because this passage states exactly the opposite of what you are claiming it does.

Lets examine this quote from �Abdullah Yusuf �Ali:

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138. The alternative is with the question in the last verse. Do you dispute with us although we worship the same God as you and claim that ours is the same religion as that of your ancestors?

This line is asking the question specifically of jews and xians who both claim to worship the God of Abraham whether they dispute that muslims also worship that deity.

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Or do you really assert that Abraham and his son and his sons' sons, who founded the tribes long before Moses, followed your Jewish religion as you know it?

This question pertains to the ancestors of jews who lived before the time of Moses in regards to the assertion that those people followed Judaism which would of course include the jewish beliefs about God.

The muslim answer�

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History of course proves that claim
absurd.

And to the xians�

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If the Christians claim that these Patriarchs knew of and followed the teaching of Jesus, that claim is still more absurd.

Again we see a statement from the author regarding the same absurdity in regard to the teachings of Jesus. Uh oh, there goes the Trinity. Note: to follow xianity is to believe in a Trinitarian deity

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-- except in the sense of Islam that Allah's teaching is one in all ages

It finishes by stating that only Allah�s (The God of Abraham that muslims recognize) teachings are relevant because it has existed since long before there was any such thing as xianity or judaism.
It is quite apparent from your very own quote that muslims only accept those scriptures of xianity and judaism in which those religions don�t corrupt the muslim ideal of the God of Abraham.

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Now that it is established that the Muslims do recognize Allah as the same God as the God of the Jews and the Christians, what of the belief of Christians' regarding Allah.

Not quite. Your above quote shows that muslims accept the teachings of jews and xians regarding the God of Abraham prior to moses and jesus respectively. It actually implies that muslims find the teachings of judaism and xianity in regard to the God of Abraham (Allah), absurd.
If muslims, jews, and xians worshipped the same deity then they would simply be different denominations of the same religion and not entirely different religions.

Quote:

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
841. The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This quote helps to support your assertion, even though both your assertion and your evidence are illogical. I have a couple of questions to ask that hopefully will clear things up for logics sake. Each question only requires an answer of either true or false.

xians believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

Jews believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

muslims believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

Answers: True / False / False (any answers other than this and I will be forced to give you an F on your exam

)

Since only the first answer is true, lets ask one more question to demonstrate proper reasoning further. This question requires either a yes or no answer.

Do xians accept the God of Abraham as NOT comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

Answer: No

To put it quite simply, the God of Abraham cannot be both a Trinity and a Non-Trinity even though most xians don�t like to admit that something is impossible for their deity.

Using a small degree of logic we have easily determined that of the three religions; Islam, Judaism, and Xianity, only xianity (or xians) believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being. We have further determined that xians do not accept the God of Abraham as anything other than a Trinitarian being. (If they did, they wouldn�t be xians.)

Your first quote from �Abdullah Yusuf �Ali seems to imply the muslim belief that the ancestors of jews and xians followed the teachings of the God of Abraham as muslims understand it to be, but that the jews and xians themselves are a bit misguided. Absurd is the term he used to describe the teachings of jews and xians regarding the God of Abraham.

Your second quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church does indeed support part of your assertion. However, neither your assertion nor your evidence to support it is logically sound, as I�ve pointed out. I�ll give you a point for effort though.

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David: I believe that these healings actually occurred.

I assume your belief that these healings actually occurred is a result of your faith in the bible?

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I do not know that these people who were oppressed by their illnesses were in reality possessed by demons.

Waitaminute. You have faith and believe the bible when it claims the healings actually took place, but you are uncertain on the bibles validity regarding whether or not these people were really possessed by demons.

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They thought that they were possessed by demons, society attributed their illnesses to demon possession, and so Jesus' healings were considered exorcisms. I am certain that psychologists would attribute their illnesses to other sources and will not dispute with their conclusions. These people had problems and they were released from their illnesses by contact with Jesus.

Are you implying here that it is possible that these people were merely suffering from a mental illness, but due to the superstitious beliefs of the people who lived during that time, they and others might have imagined it to be �possession by demons�?

David Mathews · 07-19-2002, 09:37 PM

Hello excreationist,

Quote:

What do you think about the passages involving God concerning <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html" target="_blank">intolerance</a>, <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">cruelty & violence</a> and <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">injustices</a>? Is God's infinite wisdom just misunderstood?

David: There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that ancient Israel, including both kings, priests and prophets, misunderstood God in many different ways.

Quote:

Or maybe many parts of the Bible aren't really God's word?

David: I believe that the record of Israel's sins and atrocities serves a purpose and therefore is a legitimate part of God's Word.

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I'm just trying to figure out why you'd love God if the afterlife didn't exist.

David: If the afterlife didn't exist I would love God because of His gift of life to me, the gift of the Earth and the Universe in their magnificent beauty and the gift of Jesus' life, death and resurrection as a symbol of God's perfect love for mankind.

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All three religions have the same stories from the early O.T... but Muslims don't believe some/all of the following that Jesus was God, born of the Virgin Mary, died on the cross for the salvation of those who believe, everyone else stays condemned on judgement day, rose again to life after three days and ascended into Heaven. And that God is three persons in one.

David: Yes. That is correct.

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How do you explain Mark 5 where Jesus has a conversation with some demons who have possessed a man who beg him to send them into a group of pigs? Jesus then agrees and the pigs drown themselves and the man is cured... Did Jesus make the pigs drown themselves? Or was it a super-bizarre coincidence... or maybe it was just added to make the story more interesting than the usual run-of-the-mill demon exorcism story.

David: I don't have any historical means of determining exactly what happened in this event, nor can I know why it happened.

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So you seem to believe that hell exists, but somehow no-one will end up there. Well the devil and his angels are supposed to go there... and in the sheep and the goats story in <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=MATT+25:31-46&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref =on" target="_blank">Matthew 25:31-46</a> there are at least 2 goats. (two bad people) They then go into the fire to be punished eternally based on God's judgement rather than according to where the people want to go.

David: I believe that people who want to go to hell will go to hell.

Quote:

Is *God himself* lying to Moses there? Maybe Jesus isn't speaking the truth a lot of the time either.

David: Allegories are not lies.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-19-2002, 09:47 PM

Hello Rainbow Walking,

Quote:

The point is, all of it is puerile bullshit because the ancient authors of the existing documents clearly intended their labors to be taken at face value. Are we to examine the historicity of a work based on what we want it to mean or based on what its original author was genuinely trying to convey?

David: Given that we do not have direct access to the original authors of the Biblical texts, we can only speculate as to their intent in writing those texts.

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Rw: And that is all it serves. One wonders why none of these brilliant minds ever thought of asking if perhaps the contradictions had a basis in reality more than spirituality. Remove the contradictions and you remove the limitations�curious that.

David: Are there no contradictions in your concept of reality?

Quote:

David: I have yet to meet an atheist with a clear mind. Are you such an atheist?

Rw: I�ll let you be the judge of that. Having said this I now point out that your straw man has not relieved you of the burden of supporting your claim that Genesis is an allegorical contraption. I have a sneaky suspicion that bringing your interpretational methods under the microscope of reason will expose a bit more than you�ll be able to countenance in this forum.

David: Perhaps so, I am only human.

Quote:

Prior to this time the Israelites believed they were judged nationally by the sins of their leaders. When this became untenable as a religious view, due primarily to their continuous defeat and deportation, we find the god, (who changes not) manipulating their view and religious scruples from a nationalistic to individualistic responsibility to the law, this to preserve the hegemony of the priestly tribe over the laity. Obviously, with so many folks being carted off to foreign soil pickings were getting slim. The priests could no longer count on politics to preserve the status quo so they took matters upon themselves and made obedience to god a more personal responsibility thus ensuring them a steady supply of sheep to sheer.

David: That is a unique commentary upon Ezekial 18:2-4.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-19-2002, 09:49 PM

Hello sandlewood,

Quote:

It is interesting how far one will contort one�s thinking in order to sustain a presupposed belief. A contradiction is one on the fundamental aspects of human reasoning and logic. Something cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same respect. You cannot throw out reasoning and still reason that a given claim is true.

Theists will so often argue that theism makes sense. But at some point, when it really, really doesn�t make sense, they will turn it around and say that theism is true precisely because it doesn�t make sense.

David: God is not obligated to make sense to humans. The human intellect is a weak vessel insufficient to contain the concept of God.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews · 07-19-2002, 10:07 PM

Hello wordsmyth,

I enjoyed reading your commentary upon the quoted passage in the Qur'an and 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali's commentary. I must note that you have yet to present a single quote from a Muslim which states or implies that the Muslims regard Allah as different from the God of Abraham which is accepted by both Jews and Christians. As a matter of fact, you will find no such statement from a Muslim because the Qur'an explictly makes that claim numerous times.

Quote:

It finishes by stating that only Allah�s (The God of Abraham that muslims recognize) teachings are relevant because it has existed since long before there was any such thing as xianity or judaism.
It is quite apparent from your very own quote that muslims only accept those scriptures of xianity and judaism in which those religions don�t corrupt the muslim ideal of the God of Abraham.

David: Without doubt. Mohammed separated his religion from its Monotheistic ancestors. If he had not done so, Islam would not exist.

Quote:

If muslims, jews, and xians worshipped the same deity then they would simply be different denominations of the same religion and not entirely different religions.

David: I don't follow your reasoning above. Could you clarify?

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xians believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

David: True.

Quote:

Jews believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

muslims believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

David: False and false.

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Do xians accept the God of Abraham as NOT comprised of Yahweh (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit?

David: No, they do not.

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To put it quite simply, the God of Abraham cannot be both a Trinity and a Non-Trinity even though most xians don�t like to admit that something is impossible for their deity.

David: You are mistaken. The God of Abraham in the Old Testament did not present Himself in a Trinitarian form. Trinitarianism is merely suggested in the New Testament. The Trinitarian doctrine formed after Christians had devoted several centuries of thought to the implications of New Testament teaching regarding God and the Divinity of Jesus and the activity of the Holy Spirit. Yet even after the Trinitarian doctrine formed, Christians still regard God as the God of Abraham, the God of the Jews.

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Using a small degree of logic we have easily determined that of the three religions; Islam, Judaism, and Xianity, only xianity (or xians) believe that the God of Abraham is a Trinitarian being. We have further determined that xians do not accept the God of Abraham as anything other than a Trinitarian being. (If they did, they wouldn�t be xians.)

David: You are mistaken. Trinitarians are still monotheists. Therefore, they still accept God as defined by Judaism and adopted by Islam from Judaism.

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I assume your belief that these healings actually occurred is a result of your faith in the bible?

David: Yes.

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Waitaminute. You have faith and believe the bible when it claims the healings actually took place, but you are uncertain on the bibles validity regarding whether or not these people were really possessed by demons.

David: I believe that the suffering of those afflicted was the focus of the accounts, not the cause of that suffering.

Quote:

Are you implying here that it is possible that these people were merely suffering from a mental illness, but due to the superstitious beliefs of the people who lived during that time, they and others might have imagined it to be �possession by demons�?

David: That is a distinct possibility. Jesus and the disciples did live within a particularly culture and interacted with people in accordance with the preconceptions of that culture.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Autonemesis · 07-19-2002, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Mathews:
God is not obligated to make sense to humans.

If he would be regarded as other than nonsense, he would arrange things so that he is sensible to us. You may want to say I am angry at god for saying that the idea of him is nonsense. But there is no emotion involved, only the classification of concepts. On the one hand, you have all sensible ideas. These are the ideas people can make sense of. On the other hand, you have all other concepts not in the first group. These are all not sensible or "non-sense", or simply nonsense. It is not a derisive term at all, it is mere categorization.

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The human intellect is a weak vessel insufficient to contain the concept of God.

Oh, but I have contained the concept quite satisfactorily and also functionally within the category of nonsense, as you so aptly suggested.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kind Bud ]

excreationist · 07-19-2002, 11:54 PM

David Mathews:
"What do you think about the passages involving God concerning <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html" target="_blank">intolerance</a>, <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html" target="_blank">cruelty & violence</a> and <a href="http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html" target="_blank">injustices</a>? Is God's infinite wisdom just misunderstood?"

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that ancient Israel, including both kings, priests and prophets, misunderstood God in many different ways.
Maybe the writers of the N.T. books also misunderstood God in many different ways! (Including parts concerning fundamental Christian doctrines)

What about <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Numbers+15%3A32-36&NIV_version=yes&language=english" target="_blank">Numbers 15:32-36</a>:

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While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.

Was the an "allegory"? Was Moses having trouble hearing what God was saying? What did God mean to say? Perhaps God said what the Bible says that he said - after all it says in passages such as Exodus 31:15 and Exodus 35:2 that God said "Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death".

God was speaking directly there... those words were supposed to be straight out of his mouth. If those words can't be trusted (because they've been misunderstood) then how can Paul be trusted? He didn't seem to be very strongly connected with God... on the other hand Moses met up with Jesus in the Gospels (the transfiguration) - so God must have approved of him. And Moses performed many huge miracles. Jesus spoke very highly of Moses. Do you doubt the accuracy of the things that Moses wrote that God said? If not, then that means that what is written in the earlier books that are said to be God's words, are God's words. So anyway, if Moses couldn't quote God accurately (because he "misunderstood" God), why trust Paul? Paul never quoted God directly - he did quote scripture though, implying that O.T. scripture was the authentic word of God.

So for those passages above (cruelty, intolerance, etc) could you explain why God seems to be unloving? Saying that he was just misunderstood is not a good enough answer.

"Or maybe many parts of the Bible aren't really God's word?"

I believe that the record of Israel's sins and atrocities serves a purpose and therefore is a legitimate part of God's Word.

If you read your Bible you'd see that those atrocities were *ordered by God*!!!

e.g. <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deut+20 %3A10-20&x=19&y=10" target="_blank">Deuteronomy 20:10-20</a>

Do you still think God is loving?

And here God is speaking directly:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Exodus+ 23%3A20-33" target="_blank">Exodus 23:20-33</a>.

Another passage:
<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Isaiah+ 63%3A3-6&x=11&y=11" target="_blank">Isaiah 63:3-6</a>:

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" I have trodden the winepress alone;
from the nations no one was with me.
I trampled them in my anger
and trod them down in my wrath;
their blood spattered my garments,
and I stained all my clothing.
For the day of vengeance was in my heart,
and the year of my redemption has come.
I looked, but there was no one to help,
I was appalled that no one gave support;
so my own arm worked salvation for me,
and my own wrath sustained me.
I trampled the nations in my anger;
in my wrath I made them drunk
and poured their blood on the ground."

As I said earlier, there are many more examples at the links at the top of this post...

If the afterlife didn't exist I would love God because of His gift of life to me, the gift of the Earth and the Universe in their magnificent beauty and the gift of Jesus' life, death and resurrection as a symbol of God's perfect love for mankind.

But if there was no afterlife what would Jesus's death be redeeming you from? There would be no heaven or hell. And how can things like disease show that God's love for mankind is perfect? If there is no afterlife then this is as good as it gets!

I believe that people who want to go to hell will go to hell.

So does that mean if Hitler or whoever didn't feel like going to hell, they could just choose not to go? And would they have to worship Jesus to get out of going to hell?

Allegories are not lies.

The definition of <a href="http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=allegory" target="_blank">allegory</a>:

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1. a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

If many parts of the Bible are allegories, what do they represent? Do you think anyone knows what "spiritual truths" they are intended to convey? What do you think the messages of the passages I talked about here were? A literalist would say that those verses simply talk about events that happened - though the Isaiah passage is a metaphor... do you think the message in Isaiah is that God has a lot of rage? Or was someone making it all up?

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