Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 03-07-2003, 09:01 AM

If she wants to make such a statement, fine, but as a representative of her school and mates, she should be subject to their rules. In that regard, particularly if they disagree or embarrassed by her position, then she stands at a very selfish position. ...
But I do think, ethically speaking, if the team and school disagreed with her, their rights are of greater priority than her protests (which can be done on her own, or with a group that accepts the position).

From a link to an article I posted above (which seems to no longer be present):

"Smith's refusal to face the flag, however, went unnoticed until some players and their parents mentioned it to first-year coach Shawn Lincoln. He spoke with Smith, then held a team meeting.

""The team is like any other collection of people," Lincoln said. "Everybody has their own beliefs and opinions, and we're no different." "

The school president also expressed his support for Ms. Smith's protest (though not necessarily agreeing with her position).

So it appears the team members, coach, and school president understand that it's Ms. Smith's "private" protest, and have accepted her right to protest in this manner, whether or not they agree with her position.

Evangelion · 03-07-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

So it appears the team members, coach, and school president understand that it's Ms. Smith's "private" protest, and have accepted her right to protest in this manner, whether or not they agree with her position.

Don't worry.

If he's allowed another term in office, Bush will take care of that.

Rusting Car Bumper · 03-07-2003, 02:44 PM

I've been doing some kind of amateur sports continuously since I was 18 or so. Now I'm in my 30s.

She is free to do what she wants but this is not the place to air her views.

Why do I believe this?

When she is there, she is part of a team and she should make a commitment to the team. There is a time for everything. A focused player should be there committed 100% to the goal at hand which is performing mentally and physically to the best of her (or his) ability to help the team win.

If she is engaging in protest, regardless of what it is, then this is a sign that her mind is not focused on what should be her commitment to the team.

If I was the coach and even if I agreed with her political viewpoint (which I mostly do) I would still question her fitness to play because she has chosen to mentally distract herself.

DC

Philosoft · 03-07-2003, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken

When she is there, she is part of a team and she should make a commitment to the team. There is a time for everything. A focused player should be there committed 100% to the goal at hand which is performing mentally and physically to the best of her (or his) ability to help the team win.

I agree.

Quote:

If she is engaging in protest, regardless of what it is, then this is a sign that her mind is not focused on what should be her commitment to the team.

How does it follow that the anthem ritual is part and parcel of commitment to the team? The ritual itself is entirely orthogonal to the sporting event in the first place. As a college athlete, I certainly felt no team obligation to stand for the anthem and I can't conceive that it would have been such a morale destroyer had one of my teammates not done so.

Quote:

If I was the coach and even if I agreed with her political viewpoint (which I mostly do) I would still question her fitness to play because she has chosen to mentally distract herself.

Well, my kids (that I coach) are only in high school, but I have to give them enough credit to judge their focus by how they practice and how they play. If I judged them by their behavior at other times, I would be convinced that volleyball is the farthest thing from their minds.

Rusting Car Bumper · 03-07-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft

How does it follow that the anthem ritual is part and parcel of commitment to the team? The ritual itself is entirely orthogonal to the sporting event in the first place. As a college athlete, I certainly felt no team obligation to stand for the anthem and I can't conceive that it would have been such a morale destroyer had one of my teammates not done so.

I cannot explain to why any more than I can explain love, orgasms, or anger to those who have never experienced them.

Its not a matter of "stand[ing] for the anthem." Its a matter of being focused with self-willed singleness of direction and purpose.

DC

Mageth · 03-09-2003, 09:41 AM

Its not a matter of "stand[ing] for the anthem." Its a matter of being focused with self-willed singleness of direction and purpose.

What does the anthem ceremony have to do with the players' focus on the game? By this reasoning, those who face the flag during the anthem are just as guilty of not focusing on the game as Ms. Smith. Should the whole team perhaps be studying their playbooks during the anthem?

Shadowy Man · 03-09-2003, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DigitalChicken

If I was the coach and even if I agreed with her political viewpoint (which I mostly do) I would still question her fitness to play because she has chosen to mentally distract herself.

Wow!

So, does it then follow that any football player, for instance, that does not want to join in a group prayer before or after the game is not mentally fit to play?

Rusting Car Bumper · 03-09-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth

What does the anthem ceremony have to do with the players' focus on the game?

Nothing and that's the point.

DC

Rusting Car Bumper · 03-09-2003, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
So, does it then follow that any football player, for instance, that does not want to join in a group prayer before or after the game is not mentally fit to play?

Only if the group prayer is something done for the mass of all teams and spectators which they are not. So much for a hasty generalization.

DC

Vespertine · 03-09-2003, 03:12 PM

I face the flag because people died for our country. Yes, our country sucks, but people did die for the country because they believed they were doing it for future generations. You could say it was futile or whatever, but I am proud of the people laid their life on the line. I really don't know how exactly to explain how I feel without one of you tearing it to pieces, but actual people died and for that moment when I stand there and look at the flag, listening to our anthem, I give them the respect that they deserve.

I don't care if she turns from the flag or not, but not EVERYTHING about our country is bad.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-07-2003, 09:01 AM	#41
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	If she wants to make such a statement, fine, but as a representative of her school and mates, she should be subject to their rules. In that regard, particularly if they disagree or embarrassed by her position, then she stands at a very selfish position. ... But I do think, ethically speaking, if the team and school disagreed with her, their rights are of greater priority than her protests (which can be done on her own, or with a group that accepts the position). From a link to an article I posted above (which seems to no longer be present): "Smith's refusal to face the flag, however, went unnoticed until some players and their parents mentioned it to first-year coach Shawn Lincoln. He spoke with Smith, then held a team meeting. ""The team is like any other collection of people," Lincoln said. "Everybody has their own beliefs and opinions, and we're no different." " The school president also expressed his support for Ms. Smith's protest (though not necessarily agreeing with her position). So it appears the team members, coach, and school president understand that it's Ms. Smith's "private" protest, and have accepted her right to protest in this manner, whether or not they agree with her position.

03-07-2003, 02:44 PM	#43
Rusting Car Bumper Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 4,171	I've been doing some kind of amateur sports continuously since I was 18 or so. Now I'm in my 30s. She is free to do what she wants but this is not the place to air her views. Why do I believe this? When she is there, she is part of a team and she should make a commitment to the team. There is a time for everything. A focused player should be there committed 100% to the goal at hand which is performing mentally and physically to the best of her (or his) ability to help the team win. If she is engaging in protest, regardless of what it is, then this is a sign that her mind is not focused on what should be her commitment to the team. If I was the coach and even if I agreed with her political viewpoint (which I mostly do) I would still question her fitness to play because she has chosen to mentally distract herself. DC

03-09-2003, 09:41 AM	#46
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Its not a matter of "stand[ing] for the anthem." Its a matter of being focused with self-willed singleness of direction and purpose. What does the anthem ceremony have to do with the players' focus on the game? By this reasoning, those who face the flag during the anthem are just as guilty of not focusing on the game as Ms. Smith. Should the whole team perhaps be studying their playbooks during the anthem?

03-09-2003, 03:12 PM	#50
Vespertine Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Missoula, MT Posts: 196	I face the flag because people died for our country. Yes, our country sucks, but people did die for the country because they believed they were doing it for future generations. You could say it was futile or whatever, but I am proud of the people laid their life on the line. I really don't know how exactly to explain how I feel without one of you tearing it to pieces, but actual people died and for that moment when I stand there and look at the flag, listening to our anthem, I give them the respect that they deserve. I don't care if she turns from the flag or not, but not EVERYTHING about our country is bad.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.