phaedrus

Then maybe the thread could be labelled as "Ideology competition".

The word ideology find its origin in the french philosophic movements of late 18th and 19th centuries. But can we club both religion and ideology in the same category? I dont know, both are "total" systems alrite, but the religious version of reality is centered around the divine realm unlike ideology which talks about "this" world we live in. Ideology fancies itself to be based on "reason" while religion demands faith and belief. Dont ideologies appeal to human beings who feel uncomfortable with the status quo or feel repressed? So can science and philosophy land up in this category or they are too non-political in nature to be included?

We have a choice of beliefs alright, but how many make the choice based on the actual worth, isnt it based on percieved worth which is derived by the way the belief is presented?

Kent Stevens

Maybe I could use a new term idea grouping to be very clear about what I mean. In such a term it does not have implications such as it being only restricted to political areas. In memetics they use the term memeplex for a group of memes. But I am trying to come up with a more natural sounding alternative and one not lost in metaphor that memetics seems to be. The term ideology has the advantage of having less syllables than idea grouping, but has the cost of ambiguity.

There are big differences between religious and non-religious ideas. However, if you look at parliament you will see both of these types of ideas being in competition with each other. Communists overthrew regimes based on kings which were justified by religious propaganda. If you are in America you will find this conflict between religious fundamentalists who want government support and people who hold non-religious secular philosophies. Also, there is always conflict between fundamentalists who are religious with evolutionists who might be non-religious. As a side note you will find humanists who term themselves religious.

Philosophy itself can help support totalitarianism. On my understandings of Plato he wanted the world to be ruled by philosopher kings. People who would be privy to the whole truth that peasants are denied to find. Marx's views along with evolutionary ideas were twisted to form Communism. Nietzsche's ideas along with evolutionary ideas were twisted to support Fascism. However, the usual method of choice to deny people freedom is religion. Philosophy and science is generally too much into questioning things which can including doubting authority.

jpbrooks

Sorry for the late reply.

Thanks. This method does indeed seem less dependent on the attainment of a "mystical" state of consciousness, and perhaps can be extended to the creation of new views and ideologies by changing their basic assumptions. Once the new views are created, they can then be tested
for logical and factual consistency, "workability", etc.. The more "mehanical" methods of creating new ideas are probably more useful for technical fields such as engineering than are the more "mystical" methods.

Yes. The important thing is that this kind of method allows anyone to come up with new ideas no matter how well or poor they are at using their "powers" of "insight" or "intuition".
I don't say this to denigrate
the more "intuitive" or "insight" oriented methods. It just seems that balance in creative thinking methodology is important.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: jpbrooks ]</p>

Kent Stevens

From what is said about idea competition we could characterise people as idea entities or ideas animals. For over a life time we can track the change in ideas that we have.

Take for example someone that grows up in a church. They may start out as a theist believing everything about the bible. When they get older they start to have doubts about God and they become an agnostic. They are still sympathetic to the church but wonder how God could be true. They grow older and they think that the laws of Nature are in a way like God because they help bring the Universe into existence. But maybe they start reading some freethought literature and seeing organisations on the Internet and become atheist. Of course the same process might happen in reverse where an atheist slowly becomes a believer in God.

In terms of political ideas some people can change their support and ideas over a period of time. They might be liberal to start out with. They then might become more cynical about human nature and decide that you need some conservative ideas to counter human weaknesses. They then decide the conservatives are helping hold back progress and become dissatisfied with them. They then become liberal supporters untill they think that liberals are giving money away to those people who do not need it. And the process of changing allegiances could keep on going over a period of time.

Of course there are some people whose ideas do not change much over a lifetime. There are some people who are always Baptists or people who are always liberal.

The term idea entity or idea animal is less confusing then the similar term from memetics of a meme machine.