Walter_Mitty

First I would have to ask if this religious person is believing in something because he really thinks it is true, or, does he believe in it because he's afraid to accept what he perceives as the truth?

If, after an examination of all the evidence, he believes that there is a God (for discussions sake lets assume some sort of Universal entity defined as God), then so be it. If he arrives at his own opinions without being influenced by dogma or authority I can live with that.

But, if after a thorough study of the evidence, this man suspects that religion is false, but yet clings to his belief out of fear (fear of peers, fear of religious authority, fear of not fitting in, fear of no afterlife, etc.), then this person is living a lie which makes him open to all sorts of illogical behavior. Also, it makes him intellectually dishonest and a slave to that lie. (See my above post)

Recently I have been advocating a defensive response to what I consider "the truth". For argument's sake, let’s assume this man is a friend of mine. If he never asks me what I think the "truth" is regarding God, I do not offer up my beliefs. But, if he does ask me what I think the truth is, I will tell him. I have also started to apply this to the every day world--mainly because I grow weary of living a lie in regards to atheism/agnosticism.

Insofar as your question is concerned, I have no way of knowing this man will be happy all of his life unless I am omniscient. Since I am not--and if this man is my friend--I would feel duty-bound to tell him that his wife is having an affair, even if it costs me the friendship.

Insofar as the "truth" of God, I think that truth is relative to how this man arrived at the truth (see above).

To muddy this even more, let's say I am omniscient and I do know "the Truth". Ignoring that this makes me "godlike", let's say that I am privy to the truth that there is no God (at least, other than me!). Now being omniscient, I know that this religious person will live and die happy if he continues to think God exists. But, if I tell him the "truth", this poor soul commits suicide after suffering through a lingering depression. Where this the case, I would lie and let him believe that there is God.

The problem with your question is that I am not omniscient; therefore, I have no way of knowing what effect the truth will have on him. For all I know, telling him what I perceive as the "truth" (insofar as God is concerned) may hurt at first. But in the end--perhaps due to my revelation--this man is inspired to continue his education and eventually becomes a great philosopher or scientist and ends up living a happier life than when he believed in God.

As a side note...

If your hypothetical man is never taught how to critically evaluate evidence--if he never learns
to suspended judgment when their is lack of evidence--he then runs the risk of falling for anything. What is to prevent some unethical person (e.g., pastor, politician, swindler, etc.) from taking advantage of this person for monetary gain? I tend to believe that knowledge is good, even if it is painful. Enduring uncertainty is difficult, but so are other merits.

There are no guarantees that "the truth" will not hurt.

(edited to add: I did not mean to imply that all pastors or politicians are crooks)

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Bibliophile ]</p>

Tom Sawyer

Koy,

A person who is deeply religious can make a contribution to life and is in full control of his faculties. If you have a lobotomy or are drugged up all the time, you simply exist, you don't live a productive life where you can make a contribution to the world around you, which you can do when you're religious. It isn't a valid comparison to relate the two together. Happiness is more than simply the experience of pleasure, concepts like satisfaction and joy and love factor into it as well, none of which lobotomies or morphine give you.

The point that I was making with that statement is that just because a concept, like knowing the truth above anything, is the most important thing to one person, doesn't necessarily mean that it's the most important to another. If someone wants to live his life as a sheep, my opinion is that he's welcome to do so, I don't believe that eveyone on Earth has to be a philospher and seek after the truth. Not everyone is going to be an intellectual or challenge the status quo and if people want to use the freedom they possess in life to surrender that freedom to some ill-defined higher power, be it God, Allah, or the Great Pumpkin, it's their right as a human being to do so. The fact that they've ranked their happiness in life higher than the truth is their own personal choice and, IMHO, they're welcome to make that choice.

I'm unconviced that truth for it's own sake is necessarily the top priority for every single person. Some are happy not knowing or believing something that is wrong and their lives are their own to do with as they will.

I disagree. I think the most important question is what do you think your friend would want you to do? Just because you think one outcome would be the best for you doesn't mean it would necessarily be the best for him.

If truth is necessarily the highest pursuit there is for everybody you'd be right. But as I've said, I don't accept that premise. Subsitute 'salvation' for 'telling the truth' and you sound like a Baptist preacher. The fact that it appears to be the highest calling for you doesn't necessarily make it so for everyone else and as an atheist, I would never pursue salvation for salvation's sake. Likewise, some people would never pursue the truth (again, the premise of the post is that the truth is that there is no God) for the sake that it's true. Other factors may be more important to them.

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience, but again the fact that something works for you doesn't, by definition, mean that it works for everybody.

I think that happiness can be built upon a lie. I base this on the fact that around 90% of the people in the world believe that there is some sort of God, which is a lie. More than 10% of the people alive in the world are happy and if you ask a religious person, many of them say that their faith is one of the main foundations of their happiness. Do the math. Happiness is a personal experience, so the fact that it's based on something that isn't real doesn't make the experience itself any less real.

I guess another question to ask is, what's your definition of happiness?

The Bible tells Christians that God is above everything, so I don't think that the girl would have any problem that her father is putting God before everything. It's what a Christian is supposed to do. The love of God is simply on a different level than the love of family and there shouldn't be a comparison between the two. Also, the God they talk about is a loving creature who cares about everyone and everything. I personally agree somewhat with your assessment of the Bible's depiction of him, but Christians see Him very differently.

There are different levels of self-delusion. The kind it takes to be religious is markedly different from the life of a heroin addict or someone with a lobotomy. See above.

Again, what's right for you or me is not necessarily right for everyone. If someone likes their delusions, I don't see anything wrong with letting them keep them.

Yes, I would want to know the truth. But that doesn't mean that everyone else would, or that they would necessarily be better off knowing.

But he's in love with her. It's his experience of the situation that's important. It's teh man's relationship to God the analogy is comparing to, not God's to the man. The fact that God doesn't exist and therefore has never loved anyone hasn't stopped billions of people from loving Him.

No it won't. As it is an analogy comparing the man's relationship to God, you can't just say he'll find out the truth eventually. You can only take analogies so far; sure, in real life he'd probably find out, but it's just a story.

Again, back to the fact that lots of people are quite happy living in a fake world. If they don't know it's fake, it's real to them. I believe there is no higher order of things, so our perceptions are all that really matter. Some of us make it our business to find the truth, others accept the truth that is handed to them without question. Freedom gives us the ability to do either.

If happiness is built upon a house of cards, it doesn't make that happiness any less happy. It's a personal experience and it's relation to external reality is based solely on the person's perceptions. So ultimately, if a man thinks he's happy, that's all it takes for him to actually be happy. It doesn't matter if it's based on truth or fiction.

Again, your experience is alright for you, that doesn't mean that the same applies to everyone.

Mad Kally

Here's what atheism has done for me. Freedom from all these things!

1) A horrible fear of hell when I was a young child. My mom would place my hands over my abdomen and say "This is where Jesus wants your hands to be." WTF? I would lay there all night, every night, trying to keep my hands exactly where she said they should be. I was almost an adult before I realized how sick that was!

2) I was told I was a sinner from the day I was born. (original sin)

3) God was up there somewhere in the sky and he was reading my mind and watching every move I made. Of course, every innocent childish thing I did would send me straight to hell and I knew it. (think thought patrol)

4) Fear of freedom of speech. I was told to NEVER use the word "fool" or I would surely go to hell. I could never say something innocent like "I'll bet I can run faster than you." That was a sin too. I could never figure out why, but what the hell, my parents were always right.

5) Fear of thinking and asking questions. When ever I asked the simplest of questions such as "Who did Cain marry?" I was told to be quiet and never ask questions or think too much. The devil was trying to pry his way into my mind.

6) Believing that every sin was equally evil. I would go to hell for telling a little white lie just the same as if I went to the nearest supermarket and opened fire with an automatic weapon. There's no difference in the eyes of the lord.

7) It allowed my mother to stand by and watch me and my brother be beaten and abused. She wouldn't dare step in because the bible says she is not to ursurp authority over a man. She seemed to enjoy watching it with a smug smile on her face.

8) My mom and her friends always laying hands on me to rebuke the devil out of me. They would speak in tongues and scream "I rebuke thee Satan, get out of her!"

9) My father sent me away and I had to stay in a shelter for teens because they were so convinced I was demon possesssed. Mom did nothing. I had never committed a crime. (except ask questions and doubt)

10) Even as an adult having mommy dearest scream in my face that my knees will bow on judgment day! I will burn in hell for all eternity. Then she would say "Do you KNOW how long eternity is?" Oh her dying day she will be convinced I'm possesssed. Pathetic old woman.

11) I took all the guilt and shame on myself. I was a bad, bad child and knew that god hated me. Where was god when I begged him to make it stop?

12) Watching in horror my mother sit in a chair and smile smugly on the morning of September 11, 2001, and say "Well, I have MY place in heaven!" She didn't care then and she has never cared. She is a righteous woman and a True Christian.

Coming to the II, I found a drop of reason in a pool of confusion. I've lost all my fear, shame and guilt. (I wish my brother could say the same) I was mad as hell until I realized I don't have to take it anymore. (I still have plenty of anger) Two young lives destroyed by a superstitious cult. A dangerous myth.

I'm so happy to be free of that horrid nonsense.
No, I do not hate god. He doesn't exist!

Mad Kally

Tom Sawyer

Bibliophile,


Good point. However, is there anything inherently wrong with being intellectually dishonest? Pursuit of the truth isn't necessarily the highest goal a person can aspire to. If they decide they don't want to know or accept answers that conflict with their pre-established world view and go on to live a happy, productive life in spite of that is what they've done necessarily bad? If he's happy being a slave to a lie and his life means something special to him as a result of that - after all, there's no one to judge us but ourselves - what is inherently wrong with him living a lie?

Interesting point about him being open to other illogical behaviour. I wonder if anyone's ever done a study about whether theists are moe susceptible to scams and con artists than athesists? That would be interesting to see.


That's my point. Is the fact that it's the truth worth the potential hurt that it could give? What are the benefits about accepting the fact that there is no God over believing in a fake one, other than the truth in and of itself, which I'm not convinced is necessarily the be all and end all.


----

Mad Kally,

Dude, that's some messed up shit. I'm glad you've gotten yourself out of that situation and I hope you can get past all that and move on with your life.

It doesn't change the fact, however, that most religious households are nothing like that. I know a lot of religious people and they're good, decent, hard-working folks who love their families and would never do anything like what your parents have done to you. Except the part about not asking questions and the like. Your parents sound like they are to Christianity what the 9/11 guys are to Islam.

Atheism appears to offer a lot to you as Christianity has been a tyrannical force in your life and you're better off without it. My main question, however, revolves around what Atheism has to offer those who are happy with Christianity and lead valuable, productive lives consistent with that belief. Does the fact that it's a false belief mean that it's better they don't lead it and why not?

Koyaanisqatsi

Making a "contribution" to life wasn't the issue I was addressing. The question was "If living a lie makes you happy, then what's the big deal," in essence.

By that logic, why not get a lobotomy or become a heroin addict?

Your response, by the way, explains precisely why happiness is not and should not be the barometer and that was my point.

Yes, I now, that's why I tried to provide reasons why it should be.

Arguing laissez fair is fine if your arguing about a person who chooses to simply believe something and never act on that belief in any way.

This is not the case with christianity, however.

Trust me, I would be the happiest one around if any christian actually did as Jesus instructed them to and not do as the hypocrites did and prayed in private, but there's the problem of all the other crap they are instructed to do, like "witnessing" and the like that means they--as an institution--are not simply keeping to themselves, bothering nobody with their beliefs.

They are, in fact, a very powerful and detrimental force in this world and have been throughout thousands of years of world history.

It is only relatively recently that the christian cult, especially, has been in any way "tamed," but they still have a President in the White House calling an entire region of the Earth an "axis of evil!"

Mine too, so long as he doesn't preach it to anyone else.

More later.

Odemus

Thankyou peteyh.

You have a very consistent approach to dissecting theism from an athiest perspective.

I commend you on your tolerance and ability to present an argument free from hatred or demeaning language.

We may disagree, but at least I can feel any exchange between us will not degenerate into personal attacks.

Tom Sawyer

Odemus,

I hope that wasn't a thinly veiled barb at someone else

Koyaanisqatsi

Shadowy Man

Holy crap!

Odemus

Yes, it was partly a less than subtle reference to Koy, but more importantly I was acknowledging your ability to articulate your position free of negativity.

I try much of the time to 'assume that God does not exist' to make an argument in favor of tolerance, but you are much better at it than I.

Please think of that as a genuine thankyou

[ July 18, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>