Brahma's atheist

i think my original point still stands with all it implies. All the religious replies have simply been acts of excusism using obvious, neccessary, desperate and contradictory arguements. Some say god does get involved with everything and some say he/it doesn't, it seems to depend on what arguement is being countered.
They also show a limited knowledge of humanity and beliefs since they are all Christian. I can see the world as a whole with all it's peoples and histories (I think someone will write that I can't see everything because I'm not god).
Things attributed to the act of god which result in worship :- making pictures of Mary on the side of a building, making statues of Lord Ganesh drink milk, making statues bleed, writing Allah with the seeds in an aubergine or tomato.
Are these the the kind of lame-ass acts that deserve worship?

Van Agon

Hi HelenSL,

In response to your post dated July 09, 2002 07:37 AM,

[You said:] Is the inference here that if there is a hell then "conservative Christians" (as you call them) may only have as their incentive to believe God the avoidance of it? Is it possible that hell could exist, yet one could Love God because God is Love?

Blessings, -Van

HelenM

Originally posted by Van Agon:
Is it possible that hell could exist, yet one could Love God because God is Love?

Is it possible?

All things are possible with God, so I've been taught

Blessings

And to you too, Van

love
Helen

A3

Hello Helen,
I didn’t say He can’t do much (look at the universe!) But there are things we can do that He can’t, like cheating, fake things, well you get the picture. We can do all those things because we are not perfect and He is. He can save you in the blink of an eye if you ask Him (He’s knocking at your door Because He created you a free human being with your own free will He respects the choices you make (otherwise why give you free will?). If you lead a saving life He will save you but it is a life-long process. Nothing is done in an instant (instant coffee included). When we decide to live like hell He is not and cannot change that because that is you. If He changed anything in your will then it would not be you any more. He would have destroyed you.
Much of this applies to a parent as well. There are strong parallels here. If your kid said he wanted to become a musician would you say he couldn’t and put him in medical school? If you loved your child would you send him to hell?? Would you cheat on him or hate him?
He is doing that every nano-second of the day.
The whole problem is simple: God is pure Love and Love cannot hate. He loved the human race so much that He sacrificed Himself on the cross for us. How much more ‘show’ of love do you need?
I’m sorry but I don't understand why would you want God to “hate you or send you to hell?” (See above about that parent). If anyone goes to heaven it is because they have heaven within them, that’s what they love. If anyone goes to hell it is because they have hell within them and would not want to go anywhere else.
Whatever you do, only believe what you think is true! Heaven or hell is not a group effort, it is as individualistic as dying. You are the only one responsible for you, it is your eternity.

Best wishes
Adriaan

HelenM

How could anyone want to go to hell?

That makes no sense to me

love
Helen

Panta Pei

"How could anyone want to go to hell?"

There exist those, in this world, that possess a giant hole in the center of their chest.

No amount of pain and suffering wrought upon others can fill it.

I've fought them in the darkness and found that they would joyfully enter any concept of Hell to satisy their need.

I have seen their handiwork, heard the screams and cannot seem to put an end to their legacies.

A3

Hello Helen,

Read the papers. Maybe not in your neighborhood but there are 'people' that get a sense of pleasure inflicting suffering on others and will do anything to get their own way. That is their chosen path, their will.
The reason people in heaven are happy and the people in hell only some of the time is because they live with people just like them.
One indication where someone is, is a blanket hate for police or holding someone that succesfully cheats on his or her taxes in high esteem. That is heading in the wrong direction.
This is a short peace from Arcana Caelestia 6489 written by Swedenborg in the mid 1700s.

The nature of the Lord's Providence is such that it is linked together with Foresight; the one does not exist without the other. For evil things are foreseen, but good ones are provided; and the evils things that are foreseen are constantly being turned towards what is good by means of the Lord's provident arrangement, since the Divine end, which has good in view, governs everything. Nothing is therefore allowed to happen except to the end that something good may come out of it. But because a person possesses freedom that enables him to be reformed, he is turned from evil towards good so far as he freely allows himself to be turned. He is constantly being turned from an utterly dreadful hell, which he makes every effort to cast himself into, to one that is not so bad, if he cannot be led to heaven.

Regards
Adriaan

[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: A3 ]</p>

Mageth

This discussion brings up an interesting, if a bit whimsical, thought:

Will god send masochists to a hell where they will experience no suffering?

HelenM

Yes, but you're describing people who get pleasure for putting other people in hell! Not people who want to suffer themselves!

love
Helen

A3

Mageth
“This discussion brings up an interesting, if a bit whimsical, thought:
Will god send masochists to a hell where they will experience no suffering?”
My understanding is that God doesn’t do any sending. The person sends him or herself to whereever their basic love is before death. And thus if a person is in hell now he will be in hell then. If the basic motive of doing anything in life is to be the top of the heap then that will not change. The limited happiness is the occasional time one is top of the heap, the gnashing of teeth comes when someone else has taken over that position.

Helen
“Helen: How could anyone want to go to hell? That makes no sense to me.
Adriaan: Read the papers. Maybe not in your neighborhood but there are 'people' that get a sense of pleasure inflicting suffering on others and will do anything to get their own way.”
[quote]Yes, but you're describing people who get pleasure for putting other people in hell! Not people who want to suffer themselves![quote]
There are indeed people who put others through hell in this life but it is their motive that puts them in hell in the next life. (I don’t know of any “people who want to suffer themselves!). A very shallow comfort for those on the receiving end maybe but the perpetrator is much worse of in the very long run. Someone may use a gun or a knife but they cannot put me or anyone else in hell to eternity. Whatever happens, I have complete control over how to react to a situation. I am not saying a mugging or rape can be easily shrugged off. Many years of counseling may be required and we will never forget. But hopefully somewhere deep down it would be nice if there was this feeling or wish that the crook at some point would feel deep and genuine remorse for doing it and hopefully still go the the ‘right’ heaven. This is what basically loving your enemies consists of. Feelings of revenge and hatred would more ruin the victim than the crook.

Regards
Adriaan