Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 02-09-2003, 09:50 AM

My hubby's seven siblings all live in the LA area. he himself lived in LA then moved to Sacto. Now he is a " missing Ca. terribly man in Fl." Anyways I will let you know when we take our trip to visit his folks sometime in the spring. I will give you a phone number you can contact us at in LA. ( hubby is a nurse!).

Did we highjack that thread by getting along so well ?

Hey I am guilty of throwing little nagging darts here and there disguised in innocent comments.....then I bat my eyes with a " oh dear... that is not what I meant". heheheheheh.

Sabine Grant · 02-09-2003, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
Sabine -

As one of the people who was not at all charmed by Amie's post and said so, I would like to state yet again for the record that I did not flame her in any way. I specifically assumed for the sake of argument that her intent was nothing but sweetness incarnate, but that nonetheless, the reality of life is that some people are not going to react positively to that kind of sentimentality. The subsequent events on that thread proved me rather remarkably correct. Her theism was entirely irrelevant to my opinion, as was made obvious by my later dealings with one of the sentimental atheists on that same thread.

I would most certainly have said what I said to her face and I can assure you that after spending 5 mintues in my company, neither she nor you would have any problem with the starkness of my assessments. I have excellent table manners and can converse intelligently on all manner of things in three languages. Truth be told, I'd charm the pants off the lot of you within an hour, and that includes Gurdur. Well, actually, Gurdur's probably scrambling out his trousers even as he reads this.

But that doesn't mean that I don't say what's on my mind and it doesn't mean that just because I don't use bubble letters and Hello Kitty stickers that I am being cruel or unkind or demeaning. What you call cynicism I call realism and frankly, considering how often we all indulge in social phoniness as a bypass of real communication, you should find the rare moment of unvarnished honesty refreshing instead of imputing questionable motivations to its purveyor.

I have no problem with sentimentality. That is what I find refreshing in the midst of obsessive intellectualization.
I must point to the fact that your high opinion of yoursef does not charm me a bit. I tend to be charmed by a person who has the ability to question his or her actions.

" I am sorry " goes such a long way in making anyone appealing .

livius drusus · 02-09-2003, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
I have no problem with sentimentality. That is what I find refreshing in the midst of obsessive intellectualization.

I'm sure I haven't noticed this obsessive intellectualization you speak of in MD, unless you're referring to the how perverted are you poll or possibly the rarified discussion on soy sauce. As for your enjoyment of sentimentality, well, gustibus non est disputandum and all that, but when I said some people were bound to react negatively I wasn't beheading a black cockerel and cursing the thread. Rather, I was pointing out a fact that Amie had clearly not considered in a post putatively dedicated to the wisdom she has gleaned from these boards.

Quote:

I must point to the fact that your high opinion of yoursef does not charm me a bit. I tend to be charmed by a person who has the ability to question his or her actions.

Ah, but my impeccable Italian and knowledge of fine wines would have you giggling like a school girl.

Quote:

" I am sorry " goes such a long way in making anyone appealing .

Only if they are actually sorry, of course. Otherwise, it's just more hypocrisy behind the veil of social intercourse.

viscousmemories · 02-09-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Infinity Lover
One bit of critisism I've often heard about Christianity here, is the way it's followers often lay guilttrips on others to enforce Christian dogma. I agree that's unfortunately often the case, and I'm by no means a fan of moral blackmail.

But I also don't make exceptions there, and I do think I sometimes encounter instances of atheists doing something similar, which I personally find equally lame.

I know I haven't been around here long, but IMHO this board is populated with some of the most intelligent, reasonable, rational, and thoughtful people I've ever had the pleasure to interact with. To an extent, it is irrelevant to me whether or not someone is a theist. For example, I don't attack my family for their beliefs, and for the most part we communicate with each other in a very civil manner.

I don't really know what it means to be a humanist, but is it written somewhere that humanists have an obligation to be kind to everyone? Frankly, if I think your beliefs are annoying and stupid, I may just tell you that. In fact, knowing me, I'm downright likely to tell you that. Sorry. I agree that Dr. Phil is a pretty insightful person, and makes a lot of good points about how humans relate to each other, but I'm not all good inside. I'm part kind, compassionate, generous and all around wonderful human being, and I'm part shut up and get out of my face you boring, ignorant cow.

Granted, in civilized society I generally stick to the first incarnation of myself. However, I don't always. Yes, "hiding behind the keyboard" (so to speak) makes it easier for me to express myself openly, but that doesn't mean I don't want to say the same things in person, it just means that I am usually stifled by social expectations when I'm talking to someone in person. Frankly, that's one of the reasons I like to converse here. So I can say what I mean without the reactions of my audience interfering with my train of thought.

Mad Kally · 02-09-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

posted by Sabine:
" I am sorry " goes such a long way in making anyone appealing .

I agree. At least until I get my cyber lie detector machine set up.

Blake · 02-09-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
There is nothing pertinent in the gratuitous cynical and sarcastic demeaning comments Amie recieved in her thread " What I have learned in IIDF". There were no theological attempts on her part. No expression of her beliefs. It was pure nasty bashing of her sweet intent. And I suspect that if a freethinker had been the author of a similar thread, it would have been greeted with cheers rather than discriminatory jeers. It is only because Amie is a theist that she recieved such treatment. It was a pathetic display of a prejudicial narrow minded mentality exhibited by a few freethinkers who dare to claim to be humanists.

Something struck me as off-base about this, so I went back & reread the Amie thread in question. The first comment I have is that questions of theism, atheism, theology, or belief in general appear totally irrelevant. It was an almost purely social thread, engaging none of the bread-&-butter issues usual on II.

Were the negative reactions in fact "pure nasty bashing of her sweet intent"? So far as I can see, there were only five reactions that can possibly be classed as negative: livius drusus', pz's, pescifish's, Biff the unclean's, and faded_Glory's. livius has already overexplained her own reaction, so I'll just note that it was an honest personal reaction. pz accurately noted that "observant" was an undeserved description based on the qualities Amie had culled. pescifish pointed out an unintended but very real negative consequence of that kind of post, while acknowledging Amie's good intentions. Biff the unclean posted a demeaning psychological assessment of Amie. faded_Glory's post I'm a bit unclear on; there may be an undertone of mockery, but it may also be kindly meant, sort of a laughing-with at the same time as laughing-at.

So the first three aren't bashing of any kind; the fourth isn't pure bashing, but directly based in Biff's observations of Amie's character; and the fifth is, well, whatever it is.

We don't have a perfect test case illustrating Sabine's counterexample, of a freethinker having started a similar thread & receiving kid-gloves treatment instead, but I do find it interesting that the person who suffered by far the greatest taunting and merciless abuse in that thread was SmartBlonde57, an atheist.

In short, while Infinity Lover and Sabine Grant may be right that there are examples of gratuitous abuse of theists at II, so far neither of them has furnished an actual real-life example that stands up to scrutiny.

beyelzu · 02-09-2003, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by livius drusus
I'm sure I haven't noticed this obsessive intellectualization you speak of in MD, unless you're referring to the how perverted are you poll or possibly the rarified discussion on soy sauce. As for your enjoyment of sentimentality, well, gustibus non est disputandum and all that, but when I said some people were bound to react negatively I wasn't beheading a black cockerel and cursing the thread. Rather, I was pointing out a fact that Amie had clearly not considered in a post putatively dedicated to the wisdom she has gleaned from these boards. Ah, but my impeccable Italian and knowledge of fine wines would have you giggling like a school girl. Only if they are actually sorry, of course. Otherwise, it's just more hypocrisy behind the veil of social intercourse.

I just dont see how you drink wine, whats the point, it doesnt taste particularly good and has a lower alcohol content then liquor?

I mean a knowledge of bourbon, rum or vodka is nice, but wine???

viscousmemories · 02-09-2003, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
I have no problem with sentimentality. That is what I find refreshing in the midst of obsessive intellectualization.
I must point to the fact that your high opinion of yoursef does not charm me a bit. I tend to be charmed by a person who has the ability to question his or her actions.

" I am sorry " goes such a long way in making anyone appealing .

I have to say the irony of reading such a derisive comment from someone who has thus far bent over backward in this thread to espouse a belief in charitable interaction with others is both amusing and disgusting simultaneously.

Perhaps you should demonstrate how appealing an apology can make someone. But then again, who says you have to? It occurs to me that you, like me, are under no obligation to be kind at all times.

Sometimes it's just so much more fulfilling to spew venom, is it not?

Sabine Grant · 02-09-2003, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad Kally
I agree. At least until I get my cyber lie detector machine set up.

LOL.....

Gurdur · 02-09-2003, 12:31 PM

To Sabine Grant

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
....
It is only because Amie is a theist that she recieved such treatment.

Nope. It had to do with Amie's whole history on this board.

Quote:

It is important Gurdur that you as well as other freethinkers realize that humanistic claims might get challenged in this forum if the attitudes and mentality of a few freethinkers point to discrimination and prejudice. However, note that I do not generalize those attitudes to all freethinkers. It is obvious to me that it is a minority of folks who exhibit such immaturity and narrow mindedness.

Well, now, I am dreadfully thankful you do not generalize.

Please feel very free to challenge all "humanistic" claims on this board; I do it myself much of the time.
Sabine, you don't know it, but I'm quite famous around here for pushing tolerance of theists and cutting down unnecessary spite towards theists.
Luckily, I do not generalize about all theists.

Quote:

I commend Infinity lover for having the honesty to question methods of expression used by some of " his own kind". Trying to play the argument of his relationship with Amie is IMO pretty low.

Oh come now, it's far more complex than that.

Quote:

.... You have to expect that he has better knowledge of the character of Amie than anyone else has in this forum. ..... He has knowledge of her qualities that you do not have.

Oh dear; precisely on this score you'ld be very surprised.
I recommend you do not go down that road.

AS for his relationship with Amie, he brought it up himself in the OP; I'm merely addressing the issue.
As I pointed out a month ago to Infinity Lover, and am pointing out again, his random flames around the place over the past period aren't helping anything --- neither helping Amie nor himself, nor helping the cause of greater tolerance.

Quote:

.... I guess he is not plagued by the insecurity some freethinkers demonstrate here as they segregate, demean, distance themselves from the possibility of finding a theist likeable.

For myself (and do try not to over-generalize) you're completely wrong about the basic issues, and you're also very, very wrong in your implied judgment upon me.
BUt hey, don't worry.

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02-09-2003, 09:50 AM	#21
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	My hubby's seven siblings all live in the LA area. he himself lived in LA then moved to Sacto. Now he is a " missing Ca. terribly man in Fl." Anyways I will let you know when we take our trip to visit his folks sometime in the spring. I will give you a phone number you can contact us at in LA. ( hubby is a nurse!). Did we highjack that thread by getting along so well ? Hey I am guilty of throwing little nagging darts here and there disguised in innocent comments.....then I bat my eyes with a " oh dear... that is not what I meant". heheheheheh.

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