Rusting Car Bumper

Why would you or can you do away with something that is part of the human psyche?

Religion is not the problem. It's superstition.

DC

Secular Pinoy

Oh, I agree with you. I have no beef with religion, maybe not even with some superstitions, all I want is a world without fundamentalism, religious, secular or political.

I just pointed out a possible reason why Dawkins might believe that religion could be overcome. I personally do not accept memetics.

Rusting Car Bumper

I am in full agreement with you.

DC

sodium

It seems to me that judging by current trends, religion is going away, at least in parts of the world. Maybe the decline of religion won't continue, but I don't see why.

And who is "the human" you refer to when you say that religion is part of the human psyche? Religion is a part of the psyche of some humans, and not of others.

And what is the difference between religion and superstition? And even if there is a difference, are they not mutually re-enforcing?

Santas little helper

The Dawkins quote has non sequiturs all over the place.
I don't see why.People commit suicide.They do dangerous sports.They fight for their
country.And didn't Schopenhauer say that the best thing to do is kill one's self or something ?


Right after the above quote we have
Again I don't see why.Valuing other peoples lives would make the world a safer place.
But valuing one's own will hardly have an impact.Have we any reason to believe that Hitler
for example didn't value his life ?
What is so ridiculous about a man wanting virgins completely devoted to him ? There are
obvious evolutionary reasons for such preferences and I'm sure Dawkins knows that.

Here's the best:

So the perpetrators of Sep. 11 couldn't get laid so that's why they did what they did.
Oh dear...
Couldn't it be that the courage came from desperation ? And that the only purpose of religious
faith was to make sure that they weren't going to chicken out at the final moment ?
Really ? And here I was thinking that divisiveness comes from the fact that a certain nation
occupies the land and denies basic human rights of another nation.And it so happens that
this first nation enjoys the full support of U.S.A. Which perhaps might better help
to explain why some people are so pissed off with U.S.A. rather than religious faith.

The_Unknown_Banana

I think I disagree with your whole post.

I'd think people commit suicide mostly because they feel that nothingness would be better than life, however there would probably be more people choosing suicide if it didn't actually mean dying. Dangerous sports wouldn't be quite so dangerous if you couldn't possibly die because of it. People fighting for their country still get scared, and might even be better soldiers if they truly believed that they'd go to a better place when they die anyway.

I think it's reasonable to say that people who believe death is final would be more likely to place a higher value on their life.

I'd say it'd have to be a combination. The sept. 11 people obviously had no value for other's lives, but what made them even more dangerous is that they didn't care about their own either.

A man wanting 72 virgins probably isn't ludicrous. I think it's more believing that such a thing can occur that is ludicrous, as well as how it is degrading to women - making them out to be objects rather than people. (though from what I gather that's nothing unusual in some of those countries)

I doubt this is intended to be taken as the only reason for it, although I imagine that since they did do it to get to heaven (ie. where 72 virgins await them.), it's probably not really that ridiculous an assumption imo :P

That's the whole point of the article isn't it? They don't chicken out when faced with death at the final moment, because they know death is not the end.

the_cave

As a theist, I nevertheless appreciate Dawkins' efforts to prevent the horrific lunacy that the suicide bombers of 9/11 perpetrated. He's certainly right to casigate any thoughts they might have had of receiving a reward in the afterlife for their actions.

However, I feel he's wrong to claim that an idea in the afterlife came "from religion". It's certainly debatable, but I feel that a belief in the afterlife is simply a natural part of the human psyche; rather, organized religion came in part from it.

I'm not saying there aren't parts of our psyches we shouldn't repress. Such as, the desire to murder thousands for any reason whatsoever.

Furthermore, I think it's simplistic to assume that the bombers were purely motivated by the thought of an afterlife paradise. Culture, politics, and socioeconomics had a great deal to do with it.

I mean, the Greeks and Romans wrote thousands of lines of poetry about heroes who believed they were destined for no more than a dim existence as a shade in the underworld, who nevertheless sacrificed themselves in the name of honor, family, clan, or even just plain old posterity.

I should add that although Dawkins and I would clearly have some differences, and I am not the biggest fan of his works, his letter to Juliet was rather touching.

Rusting Car Bumper

Again if you equate religion to superstition this will be an impossible conversation as they are not the exact equals.

I think you are simply mistaken about the facts. Islam is growing. Christianity is growing in certain parts of the world. Many irreligious places are growing in mainstram religions.

I am not speaking of individuals. I am speaking of the states of minds and affairs which have been apart of all human cultures. Again I am not equating religion with superstition. Superstition often arises from the rational "pattern seeking animal" in us as Shermer would say.

One deals with social interaction as it relates to answering and dealing with subjective personal questions. The other is simply belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance of the laws of nature. Of course religions can contain superstion and usually do but That is a course of history and not because of religion itself.

I would call Unitarian Universalists (that happen to be non-theists), Ethical Culturists, many Zen Buddhists, Church of Freethoughters and Community of Reason members "religious" but I wouldn't call them superstitious.

DC

[edit for grammar error]

Rusting Car Bumper

Nonsense. When I believed in an afterlife it wasn't natural. I was taught that there was an afterlife just as I was taught there was a god.

DC

Heathen Dawn

What desperation? Most of the suicide pilots were filthy-rich Saudi Arabians!

Israel is just an excuse. The fact is that Islam is programmed for world domination. The Europeans have not been supportive of Israel, but they too are on the hit-list for Islamic takeover.

I recommend this article as an aid to understanding what is really going on:

The Rationalist Folly by Jonathan Rosenblum