Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buffman · 10-02-2002, 08:45 AM

How can any competent Principal not know? How can any District School Board not know? How can any State School Board not know? How can any Governor not know?

Either their credentials to hold their positions are inadequate or their credibility is open to question. Have all the public schools in Texas been notified about the Christian ministry/ proselytizing practices of this group?

Allkholollick · 10-02-2002, 11:04 AM

From Buffman:

Quote:

How can any competent Principal not know? How can any District School Board not know? How can any State School Board not know? How can any Governor not know?
Either their credentials to hold their positions are inadequate or their credibility is open to question. Have all the public schools in Texas been notified about the Christian ministry/ proselytizing practices of this group?

I think that there are occasional mistakes by generally well-meaning faculty, administration, etc. Heavy emphasis on occasional. Mostly I think that these people know exactly what they are doing.

I simply don't trust the fundys not to push the envelope with respect to religion in school. I think that many of these people really believe that they are doing everyone a favor by forcing "the word" on school children. I have heard, on several occasions, church members voice their support for church members dragging their kids to church by any means necessary. "Its for their own good" or some nonsense like that. We have had (and may have today), people like that in our educational system.

So I will have a tendency to not accept that allowing proselytizing on campus (by a teacher, school board member, or whoever) was just an innocent mistake.

We generally have responsible and professional school officials out here. But sometimes someone wants to see how far they can go.

RufusAtticus · 10-02-2002, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 4th Generation Atheist:
<strong>

What it is with Texas is that they lost 'way back in the Civil War and those portions of their demography who still think that way have responded by taking over the country today (don't let the fact that the Bush family has Connecticut roots fool you---their election winnings these days are in the South, b/c they espouse "good old boy" Southern values). Their backing comes from reactionary elements, found everywhere but concentrated in the former Confederacy, who want to "turn back the clock" to a time when blacks were subserviant, everyone was Protestant and women were barefoot/preggers/in the kitchen. Throw in the desire for "Wild West justice" and you have the makings of a full golden-age fantasy; this has taken over the minds of the Confederates and their (now our) leaders. This is what's up with Texas. It is up to the rest of us to preserve the Union victory. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> </strong>

I don't know about that. Southern politics isn't built around licking civil war wounds anymore. (Or atleast its declining.

) The district in Georgia that produced some of the most conservative republicans in Govt. (Bob Barr, Newt Gingrich, John Linder) is one of the few areas of Georgia not populated by people born and raised in Georgia. Of course they could all be from other parts of the south, but I have met a hell of a lot of Yankees from Cobb County.

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

RufusAtticus · 10-02-2002, 03:49 PM

My mother-in-law is a school superintendent in the bible belt. Sometimes time I get the feeling that they would completely ignore evolution if it weren't marginally required for state tests. I also get the feeling that they would be religious schools if the supremem court hadn't spelled it out for them. School administrators don't usually understand the reasoning and the logic behind the law. All they know is only what their lawyer has told them.

Although she did tell her football coach, when she fired him, that it didn't matter what type of christian he was. It was a horrible coach.

Buffman · 10-02-2002, 04:49 PM

Allkholollick

I think that there are occasional mistakes by generally well-meaning faculty, administration, etc. Heavy emphasis on occasional. Mostly I think that these people know exactly what they are doing.

I agree! I especially agree with the last sentence. I lived in Texas for nearly 11 years. Both my two sons and two grandaughters were born in Texas. I was married to a fine Texas lady from Jan 1990 till Jul 1992. She owns a ranch about 48 miles west of Bush' place and land down near Austin. At one time, a small group of "Charismatic" Christians used parts of her ranch for military training exercises.

The Texans I have known knew exactly what they were doing...including those at Waco. That does not mean that I think that everything they do is in the best interests of our Constitution, our nation, or themselves... but many of them are convinced that it is...if their spiritual leaders tell them that it is. Unfortunately, that "does" include public school administrators and faculty members...as well as some very esteemed college/university professors.

My ex's ranch is about 35 miles south of the famous, or infamous, Glen Rose dinosaur valley/tracks...and has its own dinosaur tracks in one of the creek beds, roughly ten feet below ground level. (The first time I was shown them was quite a thrill for me. I was ready, right then and there, to hire a water pressure mining outfit to cut-away more of the embankment to see how far the tracks could be traced...especially because they were so well preserved and definitive. Seeing something that hasn't been seen in as many as 65 million years can do that to a person.)---Sorry! I do get carried away with that memory.

fando · 10-06-2002, 12:25 AM

Hey, wasn't this the subject of a David Arquette skit on MadTV? It was called Power of Jesus or something like that and involved three guys dressed in flashy gymsuits breaking bats on each others heads to demonstrate the power of Jesus! They ended up threatening to beat the pulp out of the audience if they didn't sign up for their gym classes. Well, ok, this is a bit different.

Sabine Grant · 10-06-2002, 07:11 AM

The separation of Church and State laws apply to all public schools. No religious group of any religion is to interfere with the State mandated school time. Student initiated religious assemblies or clubs are to be held outside of mandated school time. Faculty and staff cannot use paid mandated school time to promote any religion. These are the basic rules without using complicated legal terms.
The county school board should be alerted of any violation of those laws.
However the school administrators are the ones who often define what is "within curriculum content"... for example, the promotion of shamanism can occur during the Native American month when native american groups will share their culture with students. Of course we cannot deny that religion is part of a cultural presentation. Should the speaker of an ethnic group be told that " he or she cannot comment on their religion"? There is a fine line to not cross over when a cultural event or presentation will contain religious material.
In December, various religious holidays are presented from Kwanza to a secular Christmas.
Let me give you the point of view of a christian mother of 3 schooled children.
Schools are a place to receive academic instruction. It includes an exposure to various cultures.Unfortunatly cohersive religious instruction can occur when it is included as "within curriculum content". Did I agree with the 4th grade teacher who sent my daughter home a few years ago with home work consisting in making a dream catcher telling her in writing how it will keep her safe from bad dreams? the dear woman did not mean to promote a religious practice but she neglicted to see where she was crossing the line. I met with her and explained to her that it would be no different than sending the child home with instructions to make a crucifix and how it will keep her safe from hell.
She got my point right away.
As a parent we can make a difference by discussing any issue directly with the teacher.
I would tell this fine 12 year old kid to send mom to the school to meet with the Language Art teacher. Then if no result there, the school counselor is next. Then the school administrators.Mom needs to document everything and even bring along dad or a close friend as a witness of any conversation. In any case a 12 year old should not be the one carrying the burden to fight for his rights. We are our children's advocates until they are mature enough to undertake certain "battles".

Someone mentionned the evolution curriculum in school. In all the years of schooling of my kids (the oldest being 18), I never encountered a pro creation curriculum as part of the Science class in any public school they attended.
On the contrary. I had to often remind the teachers that a student initiated presentation on creation was perfectly acceptable and legal. Granted the student can justify such presentation with scientific data. My oldest did a presentation on the Stone Age from a creationist point of view as part of Social Studies. She scored an A from an atheist teacher who validated her research and hard work rather than give in to her own opinion.
It is sad that this 12 year old did not know that he could have requested from his teacher to leave the class and have an alternative activity in the school library. He only needed to say " I am an atheist and I do not wish to receive any religious instruction. May I call my mother?".

He has the same rights as a religious student would have. My children are never forced or mandated to partake in any activity which is offensive to their spiritual belief. And they are also taught to not be offensive to others.

Buffman · 10-06-2002, 11:41 AM

Sabine Grant

On the contrary. I had to often remind the teachers that a student initiated presentation on creation was perfectly acceptable and legal.

Would you be kind enough to amplify why you had to do this...and the circumstances surrounding your requirement?

Granted the student can justify such presentation with scientific data. My oldest did a presentation on the Stone Age from a creationist point of view as part of Social Studies. She scored an A from an atheist teacher who validated her research and hard work rather than give in to her own opinion.

I am somewhat confused by this one. How does one present "valid scientific data" concerning the Stone Age from a Creationist point of view? If it is "valid scientific data," then it is being presented from Scientific, not Religious, methodology. (Scientific Creationism is an oxymoron.) Additionally, how did you come to know the teacher's religious/non-religious philosophy?

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10-02-2002, 08:45 AM	#21
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	How can any competent Principal not know? How can any District School Board not know? How can any State School Board not know? How can any Governor not know? Either their credentials to hold their positions are inadequate or their credibility is open to question. Have all the public schools in Texas been notified about the Christian ministry/ proselytizing practices of this group?

10-02-2002, 03:49 PM	#24
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	My mother-in-law is a school superintendent in the bible belt. Sometimes time I get the feeling that they would completely ignore evolution if it weren't marginally required for state tests. I also get the feeling that they would be religious schools if the supremem court hadn't spelled it out for them. School administrators don't usually understand the reasoning and the logic behind the law. All they know is only what their lawyer has told them. Although she did tell her football coach, when she fired him, that it didn't matter what type of christian he was. It was a horrible coach.

10-02-2002, 04:49 PM	#25
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Allkholollick I think that there are occasional mistakes by generally well-meaning faculty, administration, etc. Heavy emphasis on occasional. Mostly I think that these people know exactly what they are doing. I agree! I especially agree with the last sentence. I lived in Texas for nearly 11 years. Both my two sons and two grandaughters were born in Texas. I was married to a fine Texas lady from Jan 1990 till Jul 1992. She owns a ranch about 48 miles west of Bush' place and land down near Austin. At one time, a small group of "Charismatic" Christians used parts of her ranch for military training exercises. The Texans I have known knew exactly what they were doing...including those at Waco. That does not mean that I think that everything they do is in the best interests of our Constitution, our nation, or themselves... but many of them are convinced that it is...if their spiritual leaders tell them that it is. Unfortunately, that "does" include public school administrators and faculty members...as well as some very esteemed college/university professors. My ex's ranch is about 35 miles south of the famous, or infamous, Glen Rose dinosaur valley/tracks...and has its own dinosaur tracks in one of the creek beds, roughly ten feet below ground level. (The first time I was shown them was quite a thrill for me. I was ready, right then and there, to hire a water pressure mining outfit to cut-away more of the embankment to see how far the tracks could be traced...especially because they were so well preserved and definitive. Seeing something that hasn't been seen in as many as 65 million years can do that to a person.)---Sorry! I do get carried away with that memory.

10-06-2002, 12:25 AM	#26
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	Hey, wasn't this the subject of a David Arquette skit on MadTV? It was called Power of Jesus or something like that and involved three guys dressed in flashy gymsuits breaking bats on each others heads to demonstrate the power of Jesus! They ended up threatening to beat the pulp out of the audience if they didn't sign up for their gym classes. Well, ok, this is a bit different.

10-06-2002, 07:11 AM	#27
Sabine Grant Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 32,364	The separation of Church and State laws apply to all public schools. No religious group of any religion is to interfere with the State mandated school time. Student initiated religious assemblies or clubs are to be held outside of mandated school time. Faculty and staff cannot use paid mandated school time to promote any religion. These are the basic rules without using complicated legal terms. The county school board should be alerted of any violation of those laws. However the school administrators are the ones who often define what is "within curriculum content"... for example, the promotion of shamanism can occur during the Native American month when native american groups will share their culture with students. Of course we cannot deny that religion is part of a cultural presentation. Should the speaker of an ethnic group be told that " he or she cannot comment on their religion"? There is a fine line to not cross over when a cultural event or presentation will contain religious material. In December, various religious holidays are presented from Kwanza to a secular Christmas. Let me give you the point of view of a christian mother of 3 schooled children. Schools are a place to receive academic instruction. It includes an exposure to various cultures.Unfortunatly cohersive religious instruction can occur when it is included as "within curriculum content". Did I agree with the 4th grade teacher who sent my daughter home a few years ago with home work consisting in making a dream catcher telling her in writing how it will keep her safe from bad dreams? the dear woman did not mean to promote a religious practice but she neglicted to see where she was crossing the line. I met with her and explained to her that it would be no different than sending the child home with instructions to make a crucifix and how it will keep her safe from hell. She got my point right away. As a parent we can make a difference by discussing any issue directly with the teacher. I would tell this fine 12 year old kid to send mom to the school to meet with the Language Art teacher. Then if no result there, the school counselor is next. Then the school administrators.Mom needs to document everything and even bring along dad or a close friend as a witness of any conversation. In any case a 12 year old should not be the one carrying the burden to fight for his rights. We are our children's advocates until they are mature enough to undertake certain "battles". Someone mentionned the evolution curriculum in school. In all the years of schooling of my kids (the oldest being 18), I never encountered a pro creation curriculum as part of the Science class in any public school they attended. On the contrary. I had to often remind the teachers that a student initiated presentation on creation was perfectly acceptable and legal. Granted the student can justify such presentation with scientific data. My oldest did a presentation on the Stone Age from a creationist point of view as part of Social Studies. She scored an A from an atheist teacher who validated her research and hard work rather than give in to her own opinion. It is sad that this 12 year old did not know that he could have requested from his teacher to leave the class and have an alternative activity in the school library. He only needed to say " I am an atheist and I do not wish to receive any religious instruction. May I call my mother?". He has the same rights as a religious student would have. My children are never forced or mandated to partake in any activity which is offensive to their spiritual belief. And they are also taught to not be offensive to others.

10-06-2002, 11:41 AM	#28
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Sabine Grant On the contrary. I had to often remind the teachers that a student initiated presentation on creation was perfectly acceptable and legal. Would you be kind enough to amplify why you had to do this...and the circumstances surrounding your requirement? Granted the student can justify such presentation with scientific data. My oldest did a presentation on the Stone Age from a creationist point of view as part of Social Studies. She scored an A from an atheist teacher who validated her research and hard work rather than give in to her own opinion. I am somewhat confused by this one. How does one present "valid scientific data" concerning the Stone Age from a Creationist point of view? If it is "valid scientific data," then it is being presented from Scientific, not Religious, methodology. (Scientific Creationism is an oxymoron.) Additionally, how did you come to know the teacher's religious/non-religious philosophy?

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