Odemus

I gladly welcome anyone for the oppurtunity to freely exchange ideas, be they Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons athiests, or anyone who feels they have a grip on reality and desires to share it.

If I am otherwise occupied I politely tell them I am unavailable but feel free to come back.There, was that so difficult?

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

WJ

Slave!

It doesn't matter what the atheist believes, the fact remains that if you assert a claim that atheism is truth, then truth becomes subjective. That is what part of the original thread asserts as quoted. Otherwise, is atheism absolute? Most atheists 'believe' there are no absolutes.

Therefore, this beggs the question, what does it offer? The best (and most consistent) the atheist can assert here is: no thing.


EDIT; BTW, relying on logic for your own existence is, as many would say, an oxymoron because you cannot adequately explain the nature of your own existence let alone the (non)existence of a God's. So your point about relying on logic to argue your case either way only demonstrates the atheist's stupidity.

Wali

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: WJ ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

Augmented to:

You ask that as if the "truth" were somehow worthless.

So, a continuous lie that comforts is all right, instead of telling the truth and perhaps allowing them to be human beings instead of easily manipulated sheep?

If you don't consider the truth to be enough of an incentive, then you've got me there. If somebody enjoys being lied to from birth to grave, I suppose there is no "incentive."



Are you suggesting that we lie to them too? That we present an alternative lie and treat them as horrifically as their own cult leaders do?



No it doesn't, because there is no order or purpose to their lives, ultimately, so it's all a lie. Can you imagine living a lie for your entire existence?

I'd sooner slit my own throat.

Well, there is something better out there. It's called the truth.

And the things they do actually do have a meaning in the larger scheme of things, because they're a part of the scheme of things, so anything anybody ever does is has meaning to everyone else involved?

Who are the idiots who think that their lives have no meaning without cult indoctrination?

There is literally no end to the possible meaning any person's life can have as a free thinker; there is only one meaning a person's life can have as a cult member and it's not pretty.

Godidit? No he didn't. Remember, we have free will and do everything to ourselves. God is love and therefore does nothing at all bad ever.

It was their fault for not believing enough that made their God of love angry and that's why tragedy struck.

That or the devil! Ooooh, big bad scary devil didit! Satan who will tear your flesh form off your bones in the firy pits of hell!

SINNER! YOU DESERVED YOUR PUNISHMENT! EVERYTHING BAD HAPPENS TO YOU BECAUSE GOD SEES YOU ARE WICKED!

Yeah, why would anyone have any incentive to know the truth when they can have that kind of comfort?



Thereby insuring, arguably, that poeple have an ever harder time moving on with their lives, or worse, destroying their own lives in order to "join them" in heaven.]

Besides, nobody knows--theist or atheist--what happens after death, so only a strict materialist would be the voice of annihilation, itself a perfect explanation and fine motivator to get on with your life before you are in turn annihilated, yes?

And when you tell them that God exists in order for you to worship and believe in him or he'll throw you into an eternal lake of fire, you're telling them that God is a cruel, vengeful and unjust evil to be feared at the same time he is purely just and to be loved and worshipped, thereby scaring the hell into them for their entire lives.

That's better?

What are you talking about? Are you saying that the only way to bring meaning into your life is if you are told nothing but lies?



Don't you mean, it's because "bad" things happen as a result of being alive and "good" things happen as a result of being alive and that life is a remarkable series of events both good and bad that bring joy and sorrow and happiness and sadness and the whole panolopy of emotions with every experience you feel?

What has that got to do with an ancient myth about a warrior-deity who punishes you eternally for not worshipping him?

So you'd better damn well cherish every single moment then hadn't you and stop just coasting through life complacent and docile like some goddamned sheep because this life, for you know, is all you get so get to it!

Sheep are shorn, bludgeoned and eaten. Don't be a sheep.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO BEGIN WITH BECAUSE THEY'VE WASTED THEIR LIVES BELIEVING IN LIES!

Wrong! They have been conditioned to not care about logic; the have been conditioned to believe in lies as if that gives them a purpose!

This entire argument is appalling.

Just replace slavery with God and you'll see what I mean.

Here, let me give you an example:

Get the picture?

My Aunt went clinically bonkers for two years--refusing to take medication or see a doctor--causing untold hardship and stress not just on herself and on her family, but on her family's friends and even the community around them because she was convinced that Satan--yes, Satan--was trying to posess her soul.

She has never recovered from this, nor has her family (who are all born again christians) and she spends almost her entire adult life praying and little else. Praying to keep Satan from stealing her soul.

She is, of course, clinically insane and needs years of intense psychotherapy if she is to ever come anywhere near a productive, normal life, but because it's religious delusions, nobody--especially not her own family--will even suggest that her insanity needs treating.

She is, quite literally, a walking corpse to both her husband and to her children (my cousins) all because she was told lies as a child by her own parents (they were raised Baptist) and later in her life those lies became the cnetral manifestation of her chemical imbalance that she will never seek to fix, all because of God.

At least fifteen people's lives that I personally know--relatives and their in-laws--directly destroyed going on fifteen years now because of "innocent" lies inclucated into her subconscious as a child, so you'll forgive me if I say, you can shove your lies right up your ass.

You might want to ask Mad Kally about the innocence of those lies, too.

Until it bleads and cracks open, my friend. What was one of the platitudes they stole? If we can save but one life, we save the world entire?

For my Aunt, a way out of madness.

Nobody's selling it.

If you can't see that the truth is better than a lie, then there's no hope for you, so I guess you're right; you might as well waste your entire life chasing after lies.

Theli

What atheism has to offer?

Well, I would say it offers just as much as theism.

Nothing.

bonduca

Good for you. So did I, once.

However, after about twenty-five or so, it becomes old. This is my home. They have come, uninvited, for the sole purpose of telling me what I am quietly doing is wrong.

They will do this, whether I am sleeping, eating, relaxing, bathing, having sex, doing homework, what have you. In their eagerness to "save" me, they sometimes do not leave without what borders on argument. This once caused something on my stove to catch fire, and another time, my bathtub to overflow (a flood, how Biblical!).

When it is a regular intrusion, as it was at my previous address, it becomes tedious and unwelcome. If they have not been invited, they need not presume to ring my doorbell for the sole purpose of "correcting" my privately held beliefs. If I am not calling for help, you may assume I am doing fine behind the privacy of my firmly closed door.

Is that so difficult?

WJ

Koy!

I'm convinced, as you've demonstrated by your rants, you have no clue of what a truth or lie really consists of, so I'd quit while you're ahead.



For f*cks sake!

AtlanticCitySlave

“It doesn't matter what the atheist believes, the fact remains that if you assert a claim that atheism is truth, then truth becomes subjective.”


(1) There is no God
(2) I lack a belief in God as a result of no evidence or good argumentation in favor of theism.
How is (1) subjective if it is true? I didn’t claim “atheism is truth”, I claimed atheism is true. How is (2) subjective if it’s true? A person claiming (2) either does lack a belief or does not. How is that subjective?
You have made this claim several times that atheism implies the subjectivism of truth, yet you haven’t explained how that is so. This claim is so stupid I’m not even sure I’m getting your point, so by all means, please explain again.


“That is what part of the original thread asserts as quoted. Otherwise, is atheism absolute? Most atheists 'believe' there are no absolutes.”

-What do you mean by “absolute”?

“Therefore, this beggs the question, what does it offer? The best (and most consistent) the atheist can assert here is: no thing.”

-Begs what question?

”EDIT; BTW, relying on logic for your own existence is, as many would say, an oxymoron because you cannot adequately explain the nature of your own existence let alone the (non)existence of a God's. So your point about relying on logic to argue your case either way only demonstrates the atheist's stupidity.”


-We have no “nature”, and I can easily explain my existence as the result of biological processes (namely, my parents having sex). And you can explain the nonexistence of God by relying on logic. You may want to read the Modern Library under Nontheism to get a taste.
Ironically, you rely on logic to bring us to the truth that logic cannot bring us to the truth. Makes sense.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

Tom Sawyer

OK, now that people have started talking about this, let me add another point.

While I don't personally believe in God, aside from the odd knee-jerk reaction brought about by a lifetime of conditioning, belief has given a lot of people very happy lives based on the fact that they were part of something infinitely larger than themselves and loved by a supreme being and would life forever in his bliss, etc. In truth, with notable exceptions like the Crusades, the Inquisition and Koy's aunt, Christianity has done a lot more good than harm in our society. I'm not all that familiar with other religions, but I assume the same id true there.

The fact that so many people are happy with the meaning that religion gives their lives, even if that happiness is based on them being a herd of sheep, makes their belief a good thing. And yes, in response to some comments, even if it is belief in a lie. Lots of people would rather believe a lie that makes them happy rather than truth that makes them uncomfortable. Like the song says, "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad".

So, if we try and convince religious people that God doesn't exist, are we actually doing them a disservice?

Viti

People who are happy and content in their delusion RARELY put themselves in a situation where someone would try to convince them they are deluded. Meaning, they don't go looking for information that contradicts their way of thinking.

luvluv

Um, this is quite possibly a nit-picky post, but it gets my goad around here.

If atheism is simply a lack of beliefs, how can it offer any truth? All you are saying by being an atheist is that you don't believe in God: you're belief or lack of belief do not reality make.

So, I don't see how you folks can constitute a lack of beliefs as being a "truth". A true lack of belief can be neither true nor false.