Asha'man

Good post, Gregg.

I've mentioned this before, but I think the Sanhedrin stoned him to death for blasphemy, and hung the corpse on a tree. If Jesus said even a quarter of what is claimed, then he clearly was guilty of blasphemy according to Jewish law. There are records in Jewish writings of men named Yeshua being stoned for blasphemy, including one on friday before passover.

Blame was shifted to the Romans in a later edit, and then shifted again back to the Jews in a 2nd edit.

Jobar

I'm not sure how this thread wound up in EoG; malookie said he was going to try MD. I think it should go in BC&A, if it becomes a serious discussion of the historicity of Jesus. (aside: I am one who finds it most likely he was purely myth. In the letters of Paul, there are statements that Jesus was unknown in the world. These are the earliest works of the New Testament, closer in time to Jesus' life than any of the Gospels; how can it be that Paul knew of the sect without knowing about its founder? Seems about as likely as knowing about Scientology without knowing about L. Ron Hubbard. And the whole story follows well known and understood patterns of myth accretion.)

If the discussion is not serious, it should be in MD. But I'll put it in BC&A and let the mods there make the call.

diana

I've been thinking very much the same thing, and I think it's a damn good question.

It's easy for us to say, "We'll still think he was a monster," because we're still so close (in time) to his existence and cannot imagine anyone entertaining the idea that he might not have lived at all.

But imagine 2000 years in the future. It's entirely possible that you won't be able to find a copy of Mien Kampf. Not only doesn't paper not keeps so well, but I don't know any people who've rushed out to buy this book. I suspect it's a fringe element thing, at best. It would be easy enough to lose all extant copies of such a manuscript.

Pictures? Everybody knows they can be doctored--those that managed to survive, I mean. Even movies can be doctored. Technology is amazing. How much of what we record now do you honestly think will survive for 2000 yrs?

Right.

Throws an interesting spin on the "no evidence for Jesus" question, doesn't it?

d

Gregg

I think Mein Kampf is a lot more widely read than you might like to think, Diana.

Anyway, there's far more evidence of Hitler's existence than Mein Kampf, and barring a nuclear war, quite a bit of it should survive--in places all over the world--for the next 2,000 years.

Gregg

Gregg

These theories are interesting, but I'm pretty much sold on the mythical Christ thesis. Trying to understand why a sect of devout Jews would elevate their executed rabbi to the lofty heights the Christians did--to the point of giving him titles once reserved only for God--and what their motives were for shifting the blame for Jesus' death back and forth via editing (of Mark?) is an interesting exercise, but I actually think the mythicist theory (even though it seems complicated at first glance) is the simpler and more logical explanation, and I feel it fits the existing facts much better, so I apply Occam's Razor.

Objectively, of course, I have to be an agnostic about Jesus' historical existence. It's really not possible to "prove" the case either way.

Gregg

Ernest Sparks

Maybe gangs flash Jesus signs.

Jeremy Pallant

I really can't see much justification for this thread's presence in BC&A. I'm moving it to Miscellaneous Discussions.

Writer@Large

Here are some cover images from editions of the book (from the author's personal homepage). Look familiar?

Spinrad's a decent author. I really liked his Riding the Torch (I think that's the title ... ) and Bug Jack Barron, but I've never read the Iron Dream.

--W@L

Jesse

I doubt it was the iron dream--it doesn't sound anything like the book malookiemaloo described. The iron dream was just a SF book about an alternate universe where Hitler was a writer, no? There was nothing in there about evidence that Hitler never existed or that pictures of him were faked.

RJS

I think it is more likely you are looking for a book on the "holocaust never happening" as opposed to Hiter not existing. The former topic has received significantly more attention. I am not suggesting I agree with this btw.