Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dk · 12-30-2001, 02:05 PM

Quote:

db: Well that wasn't exactly my point. What position does it put the child in when the parents are either not worthy of being respected, or are just absent? The parents should step forward in a situation such as sex education, but if they don't, then what will the child do?

dk: In a free society I presume parents, like criminals, are presumed to be innocent. Since it�s impossible for public schools to succeed without the cooperation and support of parents, what�s the purpose in denigrating them sight unseen?

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dk: - Sure, no tolerance policies. Not to long ago two 10 year olds got hauled away by police in cuffs for playing cops and robbers on the playground. There are innumerable stories of straight A students expelled for a knife, pen knife or letter opener falling into their lunch box. In public schools teasing is now considered a capital offense. In many areas Kids aren�t allowed to play except under the totalitarian eye of an adult supervisor ready to step in and settle all disputes. Kids are regularly placed in timeout to prepare them for a life in prison. Student judged disruptive are whisked away in secrecy then drugged into submission. I�m going overboard with hyperbole but fact sometimes is stranger than fiction.
db: Well I'm not sure that things like that don't cause rebellion more than blind obedience. But I do agree that the school system unjustly punishes kids. I'm not sure if they are trying to fit them in a mold by making an example out of one person or what. One of my friends had about 2 months of in school suspension for coming to school drunk. In my mind that is outrageous. As a side note, another student went to school drunk and only got 5 days of suspension. I don't really like the public school system either, but what are we supposed to do when the parents fail to do their jobs?

dk: It�s inappropriate for schools to blame parents or visa versa. Both schools and parents have the welfare of their children and students at heart. In a free open society education succeeds by transmitting to students the knowledge, tools, and accomplishments to uproot ignorance, blame and excuses. The rub on sex education today is the plethora of parental blame and excuses schools present in defense of unwed mothers, abortions, suicides, violence, drug abuse and STDs.

dk · 12-30-2001, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by -DB-:


And how does homophobia affect your sexual orientation? I don't think that argument holds up very well.

A question doesn't transmit information one way or another. If you have a point state it, but I didn't mention sexual orientation. I hope you're not suggesting gays pro-create by teaching homosexual acts to children. Such a wild unsupported alligation would put a whole new spin on sex education in public schools.

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: dk ]

dk · 12-30-2001, 02:19 PM

dUPLICATE, sORRY

[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]

-DB- · 01-01-2002, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk:

A question doesn't transmit information one way or another. If you have a point state it, but I didn't mention sexual orientation. I hope you're not suggesting gays pro-create by teaching homosexual acts to children. Such a wild unsupported alligation would put a whole new spin on sex education in public schools.

[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: dk ]

I have no idea what tangents you are going off on in this post or your last. My point was that homophobia does not change whether you like guys or girls, like being a homosexual does. You are trying to say that hating gays and being gay are related. This makes no sense at all. You are going off on random tangents and confusing the original point. Also, asking questions is part of the Socratic method so it does have ways of gaining information or insight, mostly in you questioning your own beliefs without me having to explicitly call you out.

and yes, i believe that people are only gay cause other gays have conditioned them to be that way. of course, thats the only logical way it could come about. :

:

lpetrich · 01-01-2002, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk:

dk: Blind obedience is taught at school in a 1 to many hierarchical relationship of schools (details snipped for brevity...)

In effect, dk is claiming that schools are run exactly like his beloved Church.

Which, I suspect, he considers the ideal form of social organization.

So this may be another case of right-wing projectionism.

lpetrich · 01-01-2002, 10:35 PM

Quote:

dk:
The thrust of my argument is the 1 to many AUTHORITATIVE relationship IN CLASSROOMS, under the strict hierarchy of an egalitarian public educational system. It�s the artificial egalitarian public persona elite educators mandate that makes fascism possible, fascism through better social engineering.

What an excellent description of his Church!

dk · 01-02-2002, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by -DB-:


I have no idea what tangents you are going off on in this post or your last. My point was that homophobia does not change whether you like guys or girls, like being a homosexual does. You are trying to say that hating gays and being gay are related. This makes no sense at all. You are going off on random tangents and confusing the original point. Also, asking questions is part of the Socratic method so it does have ways of gaining information or insight, mostly in you questioning your own beliefs without me having to explicitly call you out.

and yes, i believe that people are only gay cause other gays have conditioned them to be that way. of course, thats the only logical way it could come about. :

:

Seems to me you stated a conclusion after asking a question. If you're going to go with the Sacratic method then you need to wait for my answer, or offer a syllogism.
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I didn't say homophobia and sexual orientation were interdependent. The gene for homophobia and sexual orientaition have yet to be discovered. Why do you assume homophobia and sexual orientation are caused by the same gene?

dk · 01-02-2002, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:

Quote:

dk: - Blind obedience is taught at school in a 1 to many hierarchical relationship of schools (details snipped for brevity...)
lpetrich: : In effect, dk is claiming that schools are run exactly like his beloved Church.

dk: Not exactly, the Catholic Church is honest and upfront and doesn�t pretend to be a democratic egalitarian institution. A classroom in a government or Catholic school operates under a -1 to many- hierarchical order.

Quote:

lpetrich: Which, I suspect, he considers the ideal form of social organization.

dk: The Catholic Church is an institution of religion, and should operate by its religious doctrine. I think democratic institutions should operate by representative processes. Egalitarian institutions should operate by egalitarian processes. Socialist institutions should operate by socialist processes. I have a problem with any institution the operates by one set of rules, but pretends to be something else. Government school campuses are artificially designed egalitarian environments run under a strict hierarchy second only to the military. Its called practicing what you preach or teaching by example or in a single word integrity.

Quote:

lpetrich: So this may be another case of right-wing projectionism.

dk: Hey the focus of this thread was honest sex education, so lets be honest.

-DB- · 01-02-2002, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dk:
 Seems to me you stated a conclusion after asking a question. If you're going to go with the Sacratic method then you need to wait for my answer, or offer a syllogism.
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I didn't say homophobia and sexual orientation were interdependent. The gene for homophobia and sexual orientaition have yet to be discovered. Why do you assume homophobia and sexual orientation are caused by the same gene?

I wonder if that may be because you dodged the question and doubted the usefulness of asking a question.

And that is in no way what i am saying. I am saying that hating a certain group of people and being sexually attractive to a certain group of people are two completely different things. You can't assume that homophobia is genetic simply because homosexuality is. Do you think there is a gene for racism too?

dk · 01-02-2002, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by -DB-:
 Do you think there is a gene for racism too?

If there's a gene for homophobia and sexual orientation then there's gotta be a gene for racism.

Can a minority be a racist?
Can a gay be homophobic?
Can a bisexual be homophobic?
Can a homophobic be gay?
Could I be a Lesbian in a man's body?
Could I be a hobophobic bisexual in a man's body?

My origional point was that sexual orientation is some unknown combination of nature and nurture. Do you accept the premise.

12-30-2001, 02:19 PM	#83
dk Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Denver Posts: 1,774	dUPLICATE, sORRY [ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: dk ]</p>

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