jmborr

To me, there's nothing sadder than someone who's not satisfied with what they really are, who can't accept life for what it really is
It is not sad to me, I have to say. Also, you are saying a lot when you write "life for what it really is".
How do you know what life really is? At the end, all of us have to believe in something. In your case, that all that you can perceive with your senses or with the help of instruments you made is what life is.

I merely accept the perhaps cold, hard fact that, until we possibly develop space travel and set up colonies on other planets, this is where I, like everyone else, will live out the sum total of my existence
When I said "planet" I also referred to "universe".

The cat is, perhaps, wiser than you, then.
Believe me, she is not.

What would you think of a cat that strove to be human? No matter what the cat did, or believed, it would still be a cat, though perhaps a bit of a foolish cat for vainly, hopelessly striving to be what it wasn't. Now compare yourself to the cat. You, too, will remain human, no matter what you do or believe. Saying or believing you're not a "human animal" doesn't change the fact that that's what you are.

This is precisely why I became a christian, and not a buddist or a muslim. I can't overcome my humanity by my own efforts. I need somebody else to do it for me.

Do you speak of false hope? No thanks; I can do without it. In the meantime, I'll remain happy as a human, as the cat is happy as a cat. You could learn something from that cat, if you paid attention.
...and I would end up having a taste for mice. I understand that if you don't feel the need for God, then all this is crap. Just stay open in case the need comes by.

being atheist does not mean that one cannot experience the mystical, wonder at the beauty and intricacy of life, and find "spiritual" satisfaction in existence. Being atheist does not even mean that one can't believe or hope for some sort of afterlife.
Uh? Can you give me an example of such afterlife? I am really curious. Also, what is "mystical" and "spiritual" for you? Are you a die hard atheist or am I wrong at my assuption?

jmborr

Do you believe in reincarnation?

MortalWombat

No. It was a rhetorical question.

Can you see how accusing an atheist with "choosing to only live while only on this planet" would be similar to a Buddhist or Hindu accusing you of "choosing to live on this planet only once," when you obviously don't believe in their religious doctrine in the first place?

Mageth

It is not sad to me, I have to say.

So what's sad to you is not sad to me, and what's sad to me is not sad to you. We're even, I guess.

Also, you are saying a lot when you write "life for what it really is".

Perhaps, but not as much as you're saying when you add an eternal afterlife to it!

How do you know what life really is?

You might say life is really what I experience. Well, of course I can only speak of my life, which will hopefully be at least 80 years of experiencing this wonderful universe. That's really enough for me.

At the end, all of us have to believe in something.

Why?

In your case, that all that you can perceive with your senses or with the help of instruments you made is what life is.

This isn't what I believe, it's what I perceive, as you say. I perceive reality, and don't believe something just because it makes me feel superior to my neighbor's cat.

When I said "planet" I also referred to "universe".

Well, it goes without saying that this planet is part of this universe. And that's the sum total of existence. If you mean something, it's best you say it, BTW.

Believe me, she [the cat] is not [wiser than me].

In the fact that the cat accepts herself as a cat and does not waste time striving to be something she is not, she is perhaps wiser than you. Note that Wisdom is not highly correlated with Intelligence; I'm not implying that the cat is more intelligent than you.

This is precisely why I became a christian, and not a buddist or a muslim. I can't overcome my humanity by my own efforts. I need somebody else to do it for me.

Well, then, perhaps the Buddhist and Muslim are stronger than you, or at least perceive themselves to be stronger, in that they can achieve transcendance without help (I don't necessarily think the Muslim believes this, BTW; Muslims have a "confession" ritual roughly analogous to the xian one by which they are "accepted" into Islam). Perhaps god set up those religions for the strong, and threw in xianity for those who couldn't handle it on their own.

Either way, I grant nothing special to the peculiar xian way of achieving transcendance, which starts one out in a state of hopeless depravity, and which requires another to sacrifice himself so that you can overcome your depravity through him and achieve some sort of Nirvana. Quite the opposite, really.

...and I would end up having a taste for mice.

Which is quite enough for the cat. Likewise, I have a taste for life. Learn the wisdom of the cat!

I understand that if you don't feel the need for God, then all this is crap.

You misunderstand; I lack belief in god(s), I obviously do not feel the need for something which I lack belief in, and therefore all this is "crap".

Just stay open in case the need comes by.

Not bloody likely, that the need will come by. I already "wasted" the first 45 years of my life chasing in vain after transcendance-through-blood-sacrifice. Fortunately, I learned the wisdom of the cat and now accept myself as a "mere" human. Much more satisfying, really; I don't have to degrade myself to achieve transcendance. In fact, I don't have to strive for transcendance at all. This little life is enough. Non-existence at the end is enough. No more false hope for me.

Uh? Can you give me an example of such afterlife? I am really curious.

Buddhists, being atheists, believe in reincarnation of a sort. There are other examples.

Also, what is "mystical" and "spiritual" for you? Are you a die hard atheist or am I wrong at my assuption?

You might call me a "die-hard" atheist, which simply means I lack belief in god(s). It says nothing else about what my mystical or spiritual leanings might be, though. For example, I occasionally read some Buddhist literature (though I don't believe in reincarnation), and am about to read some Joseph Campbell. Meditation is a possibility for me, though I haven't really practiced it.

It's entirely acceptable and consistent for an atheist to wonder, to experience the mystical and spiritual in life (not necessarily "spiritual" in the supernatural being sense, BTW), and the fields we can wander in our searching are far broader than those fenced in by the narrow beliefs of a religion such as xianity. I've experienced "transcendance", had mystical experiences, experienced the "spiritual" side of existence, fly-fishing on a beautiful river. No god necessary;just a river, a sunset, a well-formed back cast, and an occasional rising trout.

jmborr

This isn't what I believe, it's what I perceive, as you say.
What I mean is that you believe there is nothing more that what you can perceive.

In the fact that the cat accepts herself as a cat and does not waste time striving to be something she is not, she is perhaps wiser than you.
The cat does not accept herself as a cat, because the cat is not aware of her condition. There is no wisdon in a cat because of this.

Perhaps god set up those religions for the strong, and threw in xianity for those who couldn't handle it on their own.
Christianity at the core is about humility. And it is harder to be humble than to boast you found salvation by your own merits.

I obviously do not feel the need for something which I lack belief in
Yes, I misunderstood because we come from different backgrounds. I first developed some need in the afterlive, which later developed into belief in God. From your post I gather your first lost your belief in God, and later saw no need of the afterlife.

fly-fishing on a beautiful river. No god necessary;just a river, a sunset, a well-formed back cast, and an occasional rising trout.
It is in those moments that I most praise God. I just have to give thanks.

Well, good luck with your remaining 35 years.

jmborr

No. It was a rhetorical question.

Then I will not discuss something we both do not much about it. This would lead nowhere. Sorry !!!

There must be much more to reincarnation than an infinite loop of lives in planet earth, but I ignore it.

mike_decock

I think the concept of an eternal afterlife equates with eternal boredom. The reason that life is valuable and precious is because it is finite.

-Mike...

Kosh

Now you're just being evasive. He asked you the question to demonstrate how analogous your claims were to a similar situation. Your refusal to asnwer merely emphasizes the extent of your cognitive dissonance.

Mageth

What I mean is that you believe there is nothing more that what you can perceive.

I can know or accept what I can perceive, and can't know or accept what I can't perceive. I feel no need to believe what can't be perceived. I think it's a bit foolish to do so, actually; there are countless such unperceivable things from which one can choose one's beliefs. How to differentiate among them?

"There you go, man, keep as cool as you can.
Face piles and piles of trials with smiles
It riles them to believe that you perceive the web they weave
And keep on thinking free."

- Moody Blues, On the Threshold of a Dream

The cat does not accept herself as a cat, because the cat is not aware of her condition. There is no wisdon in a cat because of this.

You would know this, how? Other "higher" animals may not have quite the level of "awareness" as we humans think we do, but I think many of them have at least some level of awareness.

Anyway, I've used the cat more or less allegorically to illustrate my point about being satisfied with what you are. IIRC, the bible uses a similar tactic, something about birds in the field not worrying about tomorrow...

Christianity at the core is about humility. And it is harder to be humble than to boast you found salvation by your own merits.

Yeah, that's right. One has to accept oneself as a depraved, corrupt, helpless sinful creature (which I don't) to get in the door, and then accept the blood-sacrifice of another innocent human (which is unjust) to escape the "just" consequences of your sinfulness. And no fair wondering why the omnibenevolent god of the universe made you that way - it's all your fault! Nice uplifting religion, that.

You're right - that is a hard pill to swallow.

Yes, I misunderstood because we come from different backgrounds. I first developed some need in the afterlive, which later developed into belief in God.

And I assume you evaluated all available religions, settled on Xianity, and then selected a particular sect of Xianity? How did you differentiate among the various options, if I might ask? Look for the one that merely required you to "humble yourself" and didn't require any actual work on your part?

From your post I gather your first lost your belief in God, and later saw no need of the afterlife.

Not really. An afterlife would be nice; I'm no fool. But I lost the false hope of an afterlife and learned to accept this limited life for what it is.

It is in those moments that I most praise God. I just have to give thanks.

I only do that if the fish are biting.

Well, good luck with your remaining 35 years.

Thanks, but "luck" is another concept I lack belief in.

Kosh

I sincerely hope that the school you attend is teaching a better scientific method than this one....

If not, may I please request that in your pursuit of physics, you STAY AWAY FROM NUCLEAR REACTORS!