Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Veil of Fire · 10-20-2002, 06:18 PM

I really like this guy. Radorth should be taking notes.

Brian63 · 10-20-2002, 06:30 PM

Goliath

Quote:

I could refer to it as a "belief that no god exists". In that sense, it could be called a belief and for those who organize in favor of Atheism, such as organizations like American Atheists, I would say it could also be considered a belief system.

Absolutely incorrect. Strong atheism is a belief that no god exists. Weak atheists, such as myself, need hold no such belief.

When we're talking about semantic subtleties, such as the meaning of the term "atheism," it's not really appropriate to say a particular definition is "incorrect" or "wrong." There isn't really an objective standard against which to compare definitions of terms; it is more intersubjective (at least in this case).

Besides, I prefer the definitions that Hoosier provided, and I find the meanings and labels of "strong atheism" and "weak atheism" to be clumsy. You do not speak on behalf of all atheists, and you do not use the definitions that I prefer and the vast majority of the population does either (or so it seems). I, like most people, see atheism as the belief that God does not exist, not merely the lack of belief that God does exist.

For elaboration on this point, you can check out the following excellent article:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theodore_drange/definition.html" target="_blank">Atheism, Agnosticism, Noncognitivism </a>

Brian

Philosoft · 10-20-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian63:


When we're talking about semantic subtleties, such as the meaning of the term "atheism," it's not really appropriate to say a particular definition is "incorrect" or "wrong." There isn't really an objective standard against which to compare definitions of terms; it is more intersubjective (at least in this case).

Since Goliath's definition is inclusive, I don't see why there should be a problem with it. All atheists do, in fact, lack god-beliefs. Some atheists also allegedly affirm the non-existence or impossibility of God. This is still perfectly consistent with Goliath's definition.

Put another way, the only way not to be an atheist is to possess a god belief.

Brian63 · 10-20-2002, 07:12 PM

Well, those points are addressed in the article I linked to (although it has been a while since I read it, I will try to explain it).

Under that definition, a newborn baby would be considered an "atheist," which there is nothing wrong or incorrect with, but it just seems a bit bizarre to say that a baby is an atheist. In such cases, I think "nontheist" is the more fitting term. Every person is either a theist or a nontheist, and "nontheist" would include agnostics, atheists, and noncognitivists.

Sorry to sidetrack your thread temporarily Hoosier.

Brian

Kosh · 10-20-2002, 07:13 PM

Joel,

do you believe that Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a big fish? If you do,please explain how this could be. (we can start another thread in BCA for this if you'd like).

galiel · 10-20-2002, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian63:

You do not speak on behalf of all atheists, and you do not use the definitions that I prefer and the vast majority of the population does either (or so it seems). I, like most people, see atheism as the belief that God does not exist, not merely the lack of belief that God does exist.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions, but you are incorrect in asserting that the "Vast majority" of the population agrees with you, or that "most people" see one thing or another. The majority of people believe in all sorts of incorrect definitions and in particular wildly incorrect and prejudicial beliefs about various categories of people; definitions are not properly subject to popular vote. Language does evolve, but that is a different phenomenon.

Furthermore, I do not even agree that a majority of self-described atheists (which is far more relevant, since we are the ones voluntarily adopting a term based on our understanding of its meaning) insist on the narrow definition you prefer. My own anecdotal experience is no more weighty than yours, but I have found the strong-weak distinctions to be quite widespread, and to be, by far, the most common set of definitions used in most modern dictionaries, encyclopedias and credible informational Websites about religion.

Cipher Girl · 10-20-2002, 09:37 PM

Brian63, not believing in a god is different from believing there is no god. Too subtle for many to tell the difference. Though for me until there is physical evidence (which I find highly unlikely) there is no god.

So do I make a positive statement saying no god until proof or do I say the negative statement of until I see proof of a god, I simply won't be bothered trying to believe in one? I go back and forth on this sometimes.

Opera Nut · 10-20-2002, 09:48 PM

"Christian Love" made me suicidal.

Ronin · 10-20-2002, 09:58 PM

Joel ~

Is God in my pants right now?

sandlewood · 10-20-2002, 10:52 PM

Hi Joel,

Welcome to the forum. I�m sure you're going to have your hands full with a lot of questions. I have one also.

I noticed that you talked about having tolerance for other religions and the beliefs of other people. I�m curious what your opinion is on issues related to the separation of church and state. Specifically, what do you think about:

- The recent court decision on the Pledge of Allegience. What would you think about removing the words �under God� from the pledge?

- President Bush�s Faith Based Initiative.

- Attorney General John Ashcroft�s daily Bible studies held at the Justice Department.

- Teaching Christian creationism as fact in public schools.

Edit: Opps, sorry. Forgot one more:

- Would you vote for an atheist president?

[ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]

10-20-2002, 10:52 PM	#30
sandlewood Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 264	Hi Joel, Welcome to the forum. I�m sure you're going to have your hands full with a lot of questions. I have one also. I noticed that you talked about having tolerance for other religions and the beliefs of other people. I�m curious what your opinion is on issues related to the separation of church and state. Specifically, what do you think about: - The recent court decision on the Pledge of Allegience. What would you think about removing the words �under God� from the pledge? - President Bush�s Faith Based Initiative. - Attorney General John Ashcroft�s daily Bible studies held at the Justice Department. - Teaching Christian creationism as fact in public schools. Edit: Opps, sorry. Forgot one more: - Would you vote for an atheist president? [ October 21, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]</p>

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10-20-2002, 06:18 PM	#21
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	I really like this guy. Radorth should be taking notes.

10-20-2002, 07:12 PM	#24
Brian63 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: My own little fantasy world Posts: 8,911	Well, those points are addressed in the article I linked to (although it has been a while since I read it, I will try to explain it). Under that definition, a newborn baby would be considered an "atheist," which there is nothing wrong or incorrect with, but it just seems a bit bizarre to say that a baby is an atheist. In such cases, I think "nontheist" is the more fitting term. Every person is either a theist or a nontheist, and "nontheist" would include agnostics, atheists, and noncognitivists. Sorry to sidetrack your thread temporarily Hoosier. Brian

10-20-2002, 07:13 PM	#25
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	Joel, do you believe that Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a big fish? If you do,please explain how this could be. (we can start another thread in BCA for this if you'd like).

10-20-2002, 09:37 PM	#27
Cipher Girl Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Sunny Southern California Posts: 657	Brian63, not believing in a god is different from believing there is no god. Too subtle for many to tell the difference. Though for me until there is physical evidence (which I find highly unlikely) there is no god. So do I make a positive statement saying no god until proof or do I say the negative statement of until I see proof of a god, I simply won't be bothered trying to believe in one? I go back and forth on this sometimes.

10-20-2002, 09:48 PM	#28
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	"Christian Love" made me suicidal.

10-20-2002, 09:58 PM	#29
Ronin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 5,047	Joel ~ Is God in my pants right now?

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