Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vylo · 07-09-2003, 01:33 PM

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Originally posted by brighid
Well, prior to the Christianization children were, as you put it, "farmed out" to others in the "tribe."
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That was of necessity, not so the mother could feel more self-fulfilled

I'll be damned, yguy made sense

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Parallels between the antique/archaic women who had no choice and the modern woman whose world is far different cannot be made. There is little, to no indication that this sort of parenting is better, or worse for a modern child.
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I guess indications are in the eye of the observer, aren't they? To you, pre-teens engaging in promiscuous sex, gender confusion and the like are no big deal. To me, they are the elephant in the living room.

Sexuality is normal for teenagers, the US has a bizarre stigma about adolescent sexuality which actually causes more problems. We shouldn't try to stop our children from having sex (we can't), we should try to teach them to be responsible about it.

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Oh and I don't think one can compare Madonna to the average single-mother, although you do know that Madonna is no longer a single mother? If only more single mothers had the opportunities and financial resources she has!!
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You didn't ask for an average single mother who ran a corporation. The idea is practically oxymoronic anyway.

And you still haven't told me why, by your reasoning, a mom can't be said to be doing the job of mothering by working outside the home and seeing the kid only an hour a month.

An hour a month would be an extreme, almost non-existant situation. Perhaps an hour a day on average. One can still do the job of being a mother in a small period of time, provided the quality of care during this period of time is exceptional.

fatherphil · 07-09-2003, 02:34 PM

i honestly doubt that we could ever agree on what "duties" the role of mother carries as we can also not agree on what the minimal level of financial care a child warrants. one thing i wonder is if a dual income family is not able to produce the cash needed for a child's higher education, do you maintain that they are immoral in having children in the first place?

pilaar · 07-09-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

QueenofSwords:
My friend's (unemployed) husband isn't really parent material - he doesn't even like looking after their cat - and since this was their first child, she decided it would be good if professionals (read : the day care center people) were helping them to take care of the baby.

What I find amazing about this tread is that the situation where the mother is trying to find the best solution for raising a child with the 'help' of a lazy and unhelpful husband turns primarily into a discussion about good and bad mothers. Why so little comment on the guy involved especially from the male participants of this tread who seem to be concerned about working mothers. What are your suggestions and comments on improving the problem of bad fathers?

pilaar

fatherphil · 07-09-2003, 04:19 PM

i have little or no respect for the man.

Roland98 · 07-09-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy:
Forgive me for being imprecise. What I meant was that you don't see the causal link that I do between such things and the gradual disintegration of the traditional family, specifically with respect to parent-child bonding.

Perhaps you "see" it and most of us do not because 1) nothing has been shown that justifies your assertion; 2) it's never been shown that there ever was some ideal "traditional family" in the way that you define it, nor that it is "disintegrating;" and 3) many of us are working moms, who know we have no bonding problems with our children; and know countless other working moms who don't, either.

Queen of Swords · 07-09-2003, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by yguy
The best mother - like the best carpenter, the best teacher, or the best artist - is the one who loves the job.

Then the best care provider is the one who loves the job as well. So, what's the difference between the best mother and the best care provder?

Queen of Swords · 07-09-2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by fatherphil
i honestly doubt that we could ever agree on what "duties" the role of mother carries

I take it you are unable or unwilling to define either "best mother" or "best caretaker"?

as we can also not agree on what the minimal level of financial care a child warrants. one thing i wonder is if a dual income family is not able to produce the cash needed for a child's higher education, do you maintain that they are immoral in having children in the first place?

Depends. Why, precisely, are they unable to produce the cash?

Queen of Swords · 07-09-2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Roland98
3) many of us are working moms, who know we have no bonding problems with our children; and know countless other working moms who don't, either.

And 4) some of us have been raised by working mothers; we have no bonding problems with our mothers and know other children who don't either.

pilaar - excellent point. Interesting that although "best mother" and "best care provider" came up, "best father" never did.

yguy · 07-09-2003, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by QueenofSwords
Originally posted by yguy
The best mother - like the best carpenter, the best teacher, or the best artist - is the one who loves the job.

Then the best care provider is the one who loves the job as well. So, what's the difference between the best mother and the best care provder?

If the best care provider doesn't get paid, he/she can cut and run. A parent can't rightly do that. Also, parents are on call 24/7. Hirelings mostly can't be, especially if they have kids of their own, who will naturally take precedence.

Queen of Swords · 07-09-2003, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by yguy
If the best care provider doesn't get paid, he/she can cut and run. A parent can't rightly do that.

I thought the best care provider was someone who loved their job. The definition didn't say "loved their job, as long as they were getting paid".

Also, parents are on call 24/7. Hirelings mostly can't be, especially if they have kids of their own, who will naturally take precedence.

Fathers, at least, are not on call 24/7 if they have jobs (assuming that at least one of the parents works, and that the family is not on welfare in order to provide the child with as much attention as possible). Even non-working mothers may not be on call 24/7, if they have other obligations such as running the household, participating in the community, etc.

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07-09-2003, 02:34 PM	#232
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	i honestly doubt that we could ever agree on what "duties" the role of mother carries as we can also not agree on what the minimal level of financial care a child warrants. one thing i wonder is if a dual income family is not able to produce the cash needed for a child's higher education, do you maintain that they are immoral in having children in the first place?

07-09-2003, 04:19 PM	#234
fatherphil Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: burbank Posts: 758	i have little or no respect for the man.

07-09-2003, 09:37 PM	#236
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by yguy The best mother - like the best carpenter, the best teacher, or the best artist - is the one who loves the job. Then the best care provider is the one who loves the job as well. So, what's the difference between the best mother and the best care provder?

07-09-2003, 09:45 PM	#237
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by fatherphil i honestly doubt that we could ever agree on what "duties" the role of mother carries I take it you are unable or unwilling to define either "best mother" or "best caretaker"? as we can also not agree on what the minimal level of financial care a child warrants. one thing i wonder is if a dual income family is not able to produce the cash needed for a child's higher education, do you maintain that they are immoral in having children in the first place? Depends. Why, precisely, are they unable to produce the cash?

07-09-2003, 09:48 PM	#238
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by Roland98 *3) many of us are* working moms, who know we have no bonding problems with our children; and know countless other working moms who don't, either.** And 4) some of us have been raised by working mothers; we have no bonding problems with our mothers and know other children who don't either. pilaar - excellent point. Interesting that although "best mother" and "best care provider" came up, "best father" never did.

07-09-2003, 11:28 PM	#240
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Originally posted by yguy If the best care provider doesn't get paid, he/she can cut and run. A parent can't rightly do that. I thought the best care provider was someone who loved their job. The definition didn't say "loved their job, as long as they were getting paid". Also, parents are on call 24/7. Hirelings mostly can't be, especially if they have kids of their own, who will naturally take precedence. Fathers, at least, are not on call 24/7 if they have jobs (assuming that at least one of the parents works, and that the family is not on welfare in order to provide the child with as much attention as possible). Even non-working mothers may not be on call 24/7, if they have other obligations such as running the household, participating in the community, etc.

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