Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Autonemesis · 07-30-2003, 12:28 PM

It's also on the money, below the pyramid on the Great Seal, right next to IGWT: "A New Secular Order."

Just thought that was worth pointing out.

Rhaedas · 07-30-2003, 12:34 PM

The US State Dept says the correct meaning is "A new order of the ages."

But it's true IGWT wasn't there originally, and the only mention of any creator I believe was on the top of the seal, and was a much more vague reference to the hand of providence or something...I'll have to look it up again..

King Rat · 07-30-2003, 12:36 PM

That is why our country seems so schizophrenic sometimes, "New Secular Order" right next to "In God We Trust."

I'm schizophrenic and so am I.

Kat_Somm_Faen · 07-30-2003, 03:04 PM

Its is not "secular" order but rather world order so its New World Order since secular comes from the lating word meaning "worldly" ie not religious, everyday...

From Webster:

Secular

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French seculer, from Late Latin saecularis, from saeculum ->the present world<-, from Latin, generation, age, century, world; akin to Welsh hoedl lifetime

King Rat · 07-30-2003, 03:11 PM

Cool! Thanks KSF!

Rhaedas · 07-30-2003, 03:21 PM

Not to nitpick, but:

http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/seclorum.html

Quote:

Thomson coined the motto: Novus ordo seclorum.
The correct translation, according to the U.S. State Department, is:
"A new order of the ages."

Thomson explained:
"The date underneath [the pyramid] is that of the Declaration of Independence and the words under it signify the beginning of the new American �ra, which commences from that date."

NOTE: Novus ordo seclorum does not mean "new world order."

More specifically, from http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/translation.html

Quote:

Seclorum means "of the ages" or "of the generations." Sometimes at the end of prayers in Latin Bibles is the phrase: secula seculorum � "forever and ever" (literally, "ages of ages").

Seclorum is a genitive plural form of seculorum, saeculorum, saeclorum that could not properly be translated as "of the worlds."

In Classical Latin, "world" � in the sense that it is used in the phrase "new world order" � would be orbis terrarum/terrae (or sometimes terra alone), or mundus, or maybe tellus. In English-Latin dictionaries, all forms of saeclum are absent from the listing of Latin words for "world."
.

King Rat · 07-30-2003, 03:24 PM

Even cooler! I love etymology, especially when somebody else does the research.

Kat_Somm_Faen · 07-30-2003, 06:10 PM

Not to nitpick too but why would secular mean worldly and not generational then?

It seems to me that both ways are plausible and that the "official" translation is "New order of the ages". How is this for conspiracy - the logo of the Information Awareness office -
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Paranoid.htm

Hmm a Masonic simbol shining light on the globe

sometimes it makes me wonder are they deliberately feeding the paranoia?

I would still sugest that beyond the "official" explanation latin "saecŭl�ris" means worldly. Though Orbis ie. the orb or the globe is the main one. I did take some 2 years of latin but am not some authority on it this definition of saecularis is avalable from a simple online dictionary.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2342210

From the above link:

II. Worldly, temporal, profane, lay, secular; pagan, heathen (eccl. Lat.): homines (opp. monachi), Hier. Ep. 60, 11 : historia, Sedul. in Conc. post Ep. 7, 9 : exempla, Tert. Exhort. ad Cast. 13 (al. saeculi): feminae quaedam (Dido, Lucretia), id. ib. 13 fin.--As subst.: saecŭl�rĭa , ium, n., worldly matters: redditur in culp� pastor saecularia servans, Commod. 94, 69 .-- Hence, adv.: saecŭl�rĭter , in a worldly manner (eccl. Lat.): mulierem saeculariter ornari, Cypr. Testim. 3, 36

Again secular means wordly and it find its origin there...

How is that for consiracy?

I guess you can take it both ways depending on how inclined you are to accept the official line

Bill · 07-30-2003, 10:37 PM

"A camel is a horse that was designed by a committee!"

The Great Seal of the United States was the product of a series of designers who each used multiple suggestions as to how to represent lots of conflicting ideas about just what the United States was intended to be.

THIS PAGE gives some hints as to the contributions of the various committees to the final design.

The big argument over religious symbology on the Great Seal surrounds the Latin words Annuit Coeptis, which is translated as "Providence has Favored Our Undertakings," and which appears above the Eye of Providence ("God"). Frankly, there is virtually no way to explain that away as anything but religious symbology.

== Bill

07-30-2003, 12:28 PM	#1
Autonemesis Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: I've left FRDB for good, due to new WI&P policy Posts: 12,048	Novus Ordo Seclorum It's also on the money, below the pyramid on the Great Seal, right next to IGWT: "A New Secular Order." Just thought that was worth pointing out.

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07-30-2003, 12:34 PM	#2
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	The US State Dept says the correct meaning is "A new order of the ages." But it's true IGWT wasn't there originally, and the only mention of any creator I believe was on the top of the seal, and was a much more vague reference to the hand of providence or something...I'll have to look it up again..

07-30-2003, 12:36 PM	#3
King Rat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,855	That is why our country seems so schizophrenic sometimes, "New Secular Order" right next to "In God We Trust." I'm schizophrenic and so am I.

07-30-2003, 03:04 PM	#4
Kat_Somm_Faen Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 3,316	Its is not "secular" order but rather world order so its New World Order since secular comes from the lating word meaning "worldly" ie not religious, everyday... From Webster: Secular Etymology: Middle English, from Old French seculer, from Late Latin saecularis, from saeculum ->the present world<-, from Latin, generation, age, century, world; akin to Welsh hoedl lifetime

07-30-2003, 03:11 PM	#5
King Rat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,855	Cool! Thanks KSF!

07-30-2003, 03:24 PM	#7
King Rat Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 6,855	Even cooler! I love etymology, especially when somebody else does the research.

07-30-2003, 06:10 PM	#8
Kat_Somm_Faen Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 3,316	Not to nitpick too but why would secular mean worldly and not generational then? It seems to me that both ways are plausible and that the "official" translation is "New order of the ages". How is this for conspiracy - the logo of the Information Awareness office - http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Paranoid.htm Hmm a Masonic simbol shining light on the globe sometimes it makes me wonder are they deliberately feeding the paranoia? I would still sugest that beyond the "official" explanation latin "saecŭl�ris" means worldly. Though Orbis ie. the orb or the globe is the main one. I did take some 2 years of latin but am not some authority on it this definition of saecularis is avalable from a simple online dictionary. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2342210 From the above link: II. Worldly, temporal, profane, lay, secular; pagan, heathen (eccl. Lat.): homines (opp. monachi), Hier. Ep. 60, 11 : historia, Sedul. in Conc. post Ep. 7, 9 : exempla, Tert. Exhort. ad Cast. 13 (al. saeculi): feminae quaedam (Dido, Lucretia), id. ib. 13 fin.--As subst.: saecŭl�rĭa , ium, n., worldly matters: redditur in culp� pastor saecularia servans, Commod. 94, 69 .-- Hence, adv.: saecŭl�rĭter , in a worldly manner (eccl. Lat.): mulierem saeculariter ornari, Cypr. Testim. 3, 36 Again secular means wordly and it find its origin there... How is that for consiracy? I guess you can take it both ways depending on how inclined you are to accept the official line

07-30-2003, 10:37 PM	#9
Bill Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gatorville, Florida Posts: 4,334	"A camel is a horse that was designed by a committee!" The Great Seal of the United States was the product of a series of designers who each used multiple suggestions as to how to represent lots of conflicting ideas about just what the United States was intended to be. THIS PAGE gives some hints as to the contributions of the various committees to the final design. The big argument over religious symbology on the Great Seal surrounds the Latin words Annuit Coeptis, which is translated as "Providence has Favored Our Undertakings," and which appears above the Eye of Providence ("God"). Frankly, there is virtually no way to explain that away as anything but religious symbology. == Bill

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