Kosh

I think you have mis-understood the "passages".

You're right, the "sword" Christ spoke of was
not a literal knife, but a different kind of
"sword". A modern example of this can be "seen"
in the movie "Man in the Iron Mask" when Dartanian
(sp?) complains that "My sword is bent", much to
the dismay of the ladies in his presence.

This ties in nicely with the verse which talks
about the disciple whom jesus "loved", and why
Peter is always compared to a "rock". Do you see
it? The final tie in here can be "seen" (even
by those "blinded by love") because Jesus is
fond of telling his disciples to turn the other
"cheek".

This is why even after he "slew" them, they would
come "seeking" him for more lol!

Talulah

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!

See how that interpretation stuff works?

One person's sword is another person's, well..........

Kosh

Thank you very much. I'll be here every
night at 7 till I get a job...

Talulah

{...Drones the TV infomercial} "And now offering exciting new careers such as stand-up bible interpreting..."

Kosh runs to the phone and dials the 1-800 number as fast as his fingers can manage. He yells into the phone ..."ME, it's MY JOB, I was born to do that job."

davidH

You seem to be well informed diana.

As yet I am waiting for those who say that the prophecy concerning Jesus death was vague to give me an answer.

I challenged you on Psalm 22, and yet none of you have tried to show me that the verses couldn't have meant the cruxifiction.

Is someone here, especially the one that made this assertion going to try and prove it?

I'm still waiting.

diana

DavidH said: I challenged you on Psalm 22, and yet none of you have tried to show me that the verses couldn't have meant the cruxifiction.

I wasn't aware I'd been challenged thusly.

I won't attempt what you ask because I think it's silly and misses the point altogether. Of course those verses could have meant the crucifixion, provided you aren't distracted by the obvious fact that the writer ("David") wrote this in the present and past tenses (and occasional future tenses, but not in any verse that might back up your theory) AND you skip over non-applicable stuff as "metaphorical."

What's more likely: (1) this scripture existed and those writers who gave us Xst referenced it to make it appear that a "prophesy"--having forgotten that it was a mere psalm, a writing form that isn't known for its prophetic value--had been fulfilled OR (2) this is a prophesy of your messiah which was fulfilled on the cross?

Take your time. Answer when you're ready.

And why do you focus so on this, which actually does not suggest itself to be a prophesy of any sort? Were I a Xn, I'd focus on those parts of the OT that were obviously messianic predictions and show how each of them were fulfilled with Jesus. Should be quite easy, provided he was who you like to think he was.

Ever done a quick search on rabbinical arguments against Xst as a messiah? Perhaps you should. You'll quickly understand why Jews laugh at you for pulling select verses of their scripture out of context then contend that these particular bits foretell your "savior."

d

Paradisedreams2

Talulah,
I don't go to church I don't care to much for it. I went for 1 year and 12 years later I never went back. It never answered the questions I had so I approach it on my own, it works for me. The simple question is how does it read to you? If it is a bunch of laws walk by them, if its a history book (and you don't like history, discard it). If you think its untrue then trash it, its as simple as that. To me it is a mediator through similitudes to answer the questions I had. I don't see it literally, it doesn't say it speaks literally...

Hosea 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and USED SIMILITUDES, BY THE MINISTRY OF THE PROPHETS.

In short, God spoke by prophets. He multiplied their "visions" and USED Similitudes by their ministry.

Did God say, "I spoke to the prophets of reality, and ask you to take these things literally"?

Perhaps if I take the Sunday paper (as the vast majority of the Church would do) and interpret it from there maybe it might sound a bit more "in tune" to the "wonderful world of Christianity" everyone so loves

Gladly the oddball out

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

diana

PD2,

You clearly interpret as you wish. Judging from your posts so far, you read the bible as though you're interpreting a tarot deck, and feel no need to justify your interpretation by addressing counter-arguments.

It makes no sense to me that an all-powerful God who demands your belief before he'll save you would give you such a cryptic guide....and it was cryptic enough before you took hold of it, but now...whew. The only comparable treatment of the Xn bible I've seen (to yours) is that of Amos. (I recommend you do a search on his posts and perhaps drop him a friendly personal message; he's your soul mate.)

I read in freshman English of a prof who'd run an experiment on his poetry class. He'd had the class before, who'd written about six random words on the blackboard, leave them there. Then he asked his poetry class to interpret this "poem." They knew at the outset the origin of the words, but this didn't change the fact that each was able to derive deep symbolic and metaphorical meaning from this random sequence. Of course, no two "meanings" were alike. The experiment was a study in the power of the human mind to force meaning where none exists.

In interpreting any literature, you'd do well to stop trying to make it mean something, Dr. Freud. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Actually--in my experience with literature--usually a cigar is just a cigar. You might try letting the literature tell its own tale--such is the job of literature, remember--then check to see if it makes any sense in light of what people say it means.

If you're incapable of shutting down the part of your brain that says, "I want to believe and I want to read this passage this way," I recommend you invest in an education. One of the main goals of education is to broaden once narrow minds.

I mean horizons.

d

Paradisedreams2

You clearly interpret as you wish. Judging from your posts so far, you read the bible as though you're interpreting a tarot deck, and feel no need to justify your interpretation by addressing counter-arguments.

Interpreting as I see it as in a "similitude" I make no appolgies for if the book I'm reading asks me to read it that way. If there is a "Fall of man" (as some call it) I should be able to see the same picture, principle and solution inside those similitudes. I try not to take offense at whats written, letting the scripture interpret for me, "Precept upon precept, line upon line". I don't justify the interpretation the interpretation justifies itself.

I don't understand the counter argument? I only saw name calling did I miss it?


It makes no sense to me that an all-powerful God who demands your belief before he'll save you would give you such a cryptic guide....and it was cryptic enough before you took hold of it, but now...whew. The only comparable treatment of the Xn bible I've seen (to yours) is that of Amos. (I recommend you do a search on his posts and perhaps drop him a friendly personal message; he's your soul mate.)

Diane thats incorrect I'm not one who thinks you need to believe in anything to be what is called saved, I see the whole world as "saved". I'm one who believed the birth of Truth in people happened on the cross. That Christ hated religion and wanted people to walk in the gift that is already theirs. You don't have to believe it or read about it, I just really love reading about the whole dynamic and learning what I take from it, thats all.

So you don't have to belief the whole Cryptic book, but it does say the following (appealing to my "love of a good mystery")

Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:

Why?

Prov. 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to CONCEAL a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to SEARCH OUT a matter.

So its my past time but I'm not bound to do it. I really love it.

I read in freshman English of a prof who'd run an experiment on his poetry class. He'd had the class before, who'd written about six random words on the blackboard, leave them there. Then he asked his poetry class to interpret this "poem." They knew at the outset the origin of the words, but this didn't change the fact that each was able to derive deep symbolic and metaphorical meaning from this random sequence. Of course, no two "meanings" were alike. The experiment was a study in the power of the human mind to force meaning where none exists.

Then that makes sense to me, gees even Christ asks, "How do they read to you"? The thing is they are "life" to me, I receive something from it, and enjoy everything I believe I'm seeing in them.

In interpreting any literature, you'd do well to stop trying to make it mean something, Dr. Freud. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Actually--in my experience with literature--usually a cigar is just a cigar. You might try letting the literature tell its own tale--such is the job of literature, remember--then check to see if it makes any sense in light of what people say it means.

But if it says it speaks in similitudes which is a "likeness" which opposite means "Solid form" then I can't take that liberty with it if I'm at all serious about searching it out. So a Tree named "The knowledge of good and evil" is just what it is to most christians (don't question it or look too closely at it) But you can't "help" but to do that with a similitude is speaks of something else. In this case a Tree is not just a tree it means "something", and from what I see in it and the principle of it is woven throughout scripture.

If you're incapable of shutting down the part of your brain that says, "I want to believe and I want to read this passage this way," I recommend you invest in an education. One of the main goals of education is to broaden once narrow minds.

I believe because it makes sense to me, like I said I don't think you HAVE to believe anything to go here (hell) or there (heaven) Thats not what I'm finding out by reading it on my own, that something I MUST believe in if I get the "theological education" you ask me to invest in (not interested). I might not dot every i or cross every t and impress anyones socks off with a swaavy debate but I don't care to impress anyone I'm just myself. To buy any kind of education out there is buying the narrow mind I chose not to have. Education in my experience teaches you "how" to think and I want to learn to think for myself. If anything I have more dollars in my pocket and a mind of my own that no one dictates so I feel thats an education in itself.

Kim

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Paradisedreams2 ]</p>

Jayhawker Soule

It's hard to get more concrete and specific than Psalm 22. One can only hope that the Lord looked kindly on Jesus and saved his darling from the power of the dog. With any luck he saved a few of those unicorn horns for future discovery as well.