Jeremy Pallant

According to the Bible, the Exodus involved over two million people. Some estimates are as high as 3.2 million people. Ignoring the logistics required in keeping that many people supplied, how would you get the message to them all about when to leave, or how to protect themselves during the Passover?

Vinnie

The logistics of this was the nail in the coffin for me. It eventually helped push (along with other things) me away from inerrancy after you posted about it on ODD a long while ago

Vinnie

Volker.Doormann

As all stories in the Pentateuch, also the story of Exodus is a parable. In this parable one can detect a lot of symbols, which have a spiritual meaning, not a historical meaning and also not a morally meaning. The Pharao symbols YHWH which is the God of life (Hebr.:'I am the life'). He has the very hard job to keep biological life running. The spiritual Soul is symbolized as 'Israel' or as the 'twelve tribes of Israel', which want to go back home to the home of the soul. Egypt is a symbol of the physical body, where the soul is bonded in slavery. In the Hebrew text for the word Egypt is taken 'Mitzrayim' which means 'narrow places'. And the soul in a physical body is slaved. The soul can not travel without this body and on the other side Egypt in not really a narrow place geographically. All VIP's were down to Egypt. This means, that the soul, which comes from heaven, where the ancient gods were assumed, because the 7 ancient planets on the sky were taken as gods, descend down. In the Gilgamesh Epos he has fallen down some drum sticks and his friend mentioned, that one should be wear not clean clothes in the nether world (=Earth) because every one then knows, that he comes from heaven.

With the Exodus of the soul from the physical body in slavery it is coupled, that something firstborn of Egypt must die. The soul transfers a symbolic sea, as it is also written in the Gilgamesh Epos as the area between Earth and heaven. If one argues that the soul is hold in slavery in a body here on earth, then each one, who is searching on a religious path, can acknowledge that. This bondage in slavery is parableized as a harden heart of a pharao. And it is not a dirty trick, it is a reality of each of us, doesn't matter how sophisticated he is brain storming about that.

In all religious rituals there is a washing procedure to symbolize the cleaning of the dirt from the soul. This also mentioned in the 4000 year old Indian 'Manusmriti' II, 60. "Let him first sip water thrice; next twice wipe his mouth; and, lastly, touch with water the cavities (of the head), (the seat of) the soul and the head .

It should be understandable, that weather dirt is holy or not. If the soul gets clean by 'washing' one can argue that is not fair to the dirt and the washer, but because it is a parable, it simple should show, that the awaking spiritual soul ('Israel') is no longer be in slavery of a body.

This is also parableized in the tradition of the Jewish Passah and in the Golgata story of the gospels. The soul (Jesus) is taken in slavery (by the Jewisch scholars) and ascend as soul back home to heaven, leaving a bloody body back. In the Passah it is symbolized with a time of full moon, because this is a turning point from increasing biological life to decreasing biological life.

There never were historical events with this symbols. The symbols itself, 'Egypt', 'Pharao', 'Israel', 'Red sea', have literally no meaning, and no one ever could explain these Exodus stories in a logic manner. Impossible, because there is a natural order in this world, which is not to be changed to a misorder.

In the spiritual world there is no causality and no locality. In this word is causality and locality. This gives the soul the totally freedom to act. But as causality claims this has effects for the soul as actor. If the acting is against the spiritual order, then this effect is loaded on the soul as sorrow and lamentations are spoken. If the acting is in order with the spiritual order (truth, love), no interfering could taken place, except this is generated in earlier times and effects now.

All this acting is a process of 'cleaning' the consciousness of the soul, and that, what the soul is experiencing against the spiritual laws is effecting as a causally feedback to the soul, and is parabelized in the Exodus story as 'Pharao'. Not the Pharao is mad, it is the acting against spirituality, which is mad. If each acting, which is against ethical rules never would have a causal effect, then it would be senseless to follow spiritual order (!). So each one can recognize, that he himself is the Pharao as the 'guardian' of causality.

Morality depends on time. Causality not. This causality law is also known as the law of Karma and Jesus has some times spoken about this relation. Who knows, what a soul has act in prior lifes? Who knows, where he was prior to his birth?

Only if he is aware about that, he can criticize the law of Karma and causality symbolized as 'Pharao' in the great parable of Exodus in the Torah.

Volker

BadBadBad

Thanks for this on the historicity. Growing up, I never believed the main nonsense about the bible. Omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient gods, whale stories, parting of seas, walking on water, it's just always seemed like total nonsense. Pressured by a christian wife, I've begun to read the bible. Not only are the widely known parts of it non-sense, the more I read even my little brain is shocked by the level of utter non-sense. Then I research on the Internet and here, and I find out that the scope of non-sense is shockingly beyond what I see on first reading. Thanks again, that's what I get out of these discussions, not to mention the comedy of the christian position.

BadBadBad

Volker,

More streaming gibberish. If this is accurate, all the more reason to not even consider it worthy of conversation.

Silent Acorns

Yeah, I know that the Exodus story is a fictional tale with only the smallest kernal of truth behind it (i.e. Egypt existed, there were Pharaohs, and Canaanites have been known to come to Egypt and go - but not 2 million at a time). But I was curious how Christains would defend God's "I will harden his heart" line, and how this is purged from the popularized versions of the tale. I can't say I'm surprised by their evasive tactics (especially Volker's), but I am dissapointed.

Old Man: you said that Christains don't ignore aspects of the Bible they don't like, but your explanation puts full emphasis on the 3 times Pharaoh was said to harden his own heart and ignores the 11 instances that God either interferes, or admits to interfering, with Pharaoh's heart. Your claim that God didn't interfere with Pharaoh's free will, but merely created the circumstances which He knew would result in Pharaoh's heart hardening is problematic for two reasons: 1) it is not supported by a single line in the Exodus story, and 2) it ignores the fact that Pharaoh wasn't punished by God - the population of Egypt was.

How is the punishing of the innocent people of Egypt for the the "sins" of Pharaoh an example of justice carried out by a moral and loving god?

Jeremy Pallant

Glad to be of service.

doodad

It appears that the movie industry has been dominated by Jews for decades, so does it surprise anyone that the movie was sanitized?

Volker.Doormann

No. The Exodus story is a parable. And a parable contains a hidden truth, which must be recognized to grasp the truth in it. A parable never can taken literally. Only if one takes a parable literally this results in not proved Claims as 'knowing that the story is fictional'. Knowledge about a fiction is worthless. Only knowledge about 'things' which have a meaning or an existence, which can be shown is of any value. Not that, what has no existence. If one 'knows that the homosexuality of Donald Duck is a fiction', without any proofs, he not can taken serious scientifically. To discredit the truth hidden in parables only because one is unable to grasp parables, is a claim, that teach, that truth is not to find in nonmaterial dimensions, but only in physics. If one argues, that that, what not is to be shown by natural physics of forces, then logic, math and harmony - p.e. expressed in music - must also be 'known as fictional'; no one ever has the existence of logic, math and harmony proved as objects of natural physical forces. No scientist can prove logic without that he has believers, who are believing in logic. No one who is hungry can be full up with logic and no equation can be solved only with bananas. It is recognizable that music is not to be analyzed adequate only by a Fourier Analyze or the Hebrew Pentateuch parables as a war report of the pentagon from this century.

The hidden meaning of the parables of the Hebrew Torah is mainly lost. Weather Jews, nor Christ's, nor Moslem's have a clear knowledge about the hidden meaning of that parables. There is no need to discredit this parables. Abrahamitic religions have taken this parables into the social life, not knowing, that these parables are only symbols of the most inner spiritual consciousness of each man and each woman beyond the physical/biological life.

If one takes this mistaken crime to blame the spiritual parables for that, what is done by persons and 'Authorities' of the social secular religions, is mistaken in his claims and acts.



I - Volker - never was a member of any religion. I have heard some 'religious commandments', which should be written in the Luther Bible as I was 13 years old, and I was not impressed about this strange commandments. I was impressed by fairy tales. As is had realized, that all this fairy tales are part of each
Human being as the state of spiritual and psychic consciousness, I have searched on this and have found this consciousness in all myths over the world and was wondering about the isolated point of view of each culture and each religion as a social point of view, but not as a spiritual point of view.

I have found, that ever there was a lack of spiritual understanding beside an individual spiritual consciousness all over the world which depends not on special religious cultures.

To reveal a position, that exhibits a 1 bit Black/White point of view, in that there are only (personal addressed Persons) 'evasive tactics working Christians' and 'Me (no need to be discuss my skeptic position)', seems to me, that this doesn't match the plot. It rather demonstrate a consciousness of polarity, that is interest in the position of a winner, than in solving the unknown to the known.

Not he, who is extern from the object is able to find the truth about the object, only he, who is studying the object adequate. To blame him, who reports about the object doesn't show the capability to distinguish.

The OT is not written by Christ's. The text is collected by Jews, not by Christ's. If one blames Christ's for the Exodus parable, not reading it in Hebrew language, is criticizing and qualifying words as 'Egypt', which never exist in the Hebrew scripture, has not the capability to argue adequate and seriously on this plot.

If one takes the parables literally, he cannot blame others for his mistaken interpretations. There is ever the freedom to learn to recognize the hidden truth behind that parables. He can criticize, that people take this parables literally, against all natural physical laws, but he cannot discredit parables, only because he is not able to decode their hidden meaning.

Beside the parables in the OT and NT there are a lot of parables hidden in the ancient myths of the Greek, and many other cultures. Plato has cited the Cave Allegory from Socrates as a classic demonstration of the two parallel meaning of the 'real' and 'virtual' world as they can exist 'parallel' [from what the parable got it's name) in the consciousness.

The interpretation of parables is possible only when there is a spiritual consciousness for the meaning. AFAIK - and I have ask many Christ's and people who have studied Christian theology - there is a big lack of consciousness for the Jesus parables in the NT. There were only fear, that I would destroy the Christian religion. Not one parable loaded with hidden meanings was to be shown by them by their spiritual meaning.

Religion deals with spiritual order. No natural science and no skepticism can claim lacks of ethic without showing, why these lacks are lacks and what the absolute reference is. To my knowledge there is no absolute reference in natural science and skepticism about spiritual order. Spiritual order is not to be mixed with social order as a hierarchical system of physical and social power. All parables in the bible - including the Exodus parable - can only be taken spiritually. No one of an open and reasonable mind takes this bible parables literally. If Bob Dylan is 'knocking on heaven's door', and one argues, that there are no door's in heaven, and that this proves, that there then also can be no god, then he is a master of logic and rational thinking, but not a master of encoding parables.

Searching for an order implies the knowledge, that there exist already an order. Already to separate false from true is an acknowledgement and an agreement of an order.

To reject the existence of a spiritual order simultaneously with the use of ethical qualifications or disqualification's is a classic contradiction, of the evasive tactics of pseudoscientifically arguing.

Skepticism objects all, but not the acting skeptic consciousness of the owner himself. He knows nothing about the source of his ability to separate false from true and he can't show, that this is proved by the natural science of physical forces.

I think, it is a good position, to be modest in the field of spiritual order. No doubt, that the mistaken literally understanding of that torah parables by Judaism, Christianity and Islam resulting in polarity and war, must be subjected. But I think it is more efficient to show Jews, Christ's, and Moslems what they have mistaken from the scripture to let growing a consciousness, that there is no religious reason for a social religion, but only to understand spiritual order as an inner order recognizable to each individual human being including skeptics and all other labeled souls.

Passover is the event of the beginning of the 15th day (full moon) of the spring month from the Hebrew moon calendar. Exact to this time there are dying firstborn Egypt's.

Exact at the half day (of 12 hours in total) after six hours counting from the morning the body of Jesus is dying according to the gospels. While after the death of the firstborn Egypt's 'IsraEl' is free from bondage of 'Egypt' (symbol of the physical body here on earth), the soul of Jesus is free from his physical bondage in his body.

From ancient times the moon month and the day with the rising and descending sun after it has reached its highest position on the sky is loaded with the crescending and descendinig of physical life. To note, that one is crossed exact to this time, is a hint, that this is a symbol and not a history report.

It is the very same parable and not a historically event, what is symbolized with this double of the Hebrew passah event from Exodus. And as often dramatized the Lazarus parable ('Lazarus' = 'El Asar' = 'God Osiris') in the gospels it is packed another time behind that ascending of the soul, moving stones from a cave to free the spiritual soul from it's body 'prison'. Reasonable people never have taken this double of doubles - loud crying as a parable - as historic events, except Christ's.

This may show, as an example, what parable encoding can do. No supernatural claims must be acknowledged. No religious war must be fight because some people have mistaken symbols as claim of social horror authority.

Volker