Talulah

I find that while praying for God's will in my life, his will starts to look a lot like mine. I mean, how do I discern his will from my own? The two seem to get all mixed together.

Maybe when I think that God is speaking to me and revealing his divine will for my life, it is just my mind playing tricks on me. Sometimes I just get so paranoid. Is that really God's still small voice that I hear in my ear?

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

HelenM

Diana my dear, I think Talulah might find your language a wee bit - disturbing! She just might be reading, you know...

love
Helen

HelenM

Originally posted by Talulah:

I find that while praying for God's will in my life, his will starts to look a lot like mine. I mean, how do I discern his will from my own? The two seem to get all mixed together.

That is very exciting, Talulah! It sounds like you are already becoming so like Him that you want to do His will!

Maybe when I think that God is speaking to me and revealing his divine will for my life, it is just my mind playing tricks on me. Sometimes I just get so paranoid. Is that really God's still small voice that I hear in my ear?

I expect that you know this because you seem like a smart lady, Talulah: the answer is to immerse yourself in the Word of God (I mean the Bible, of course). Then you will be able to test those thoughts against what the Bible says and know whether they are truly God's, or not!

You are to renew your mind with the Word of God, the Bible.

Then you will be able to discern whether those questionable thoughts are from God, or not!

love
Helen

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Talulah

I could read the bible to try to ascertain whether God wants me to go and get my driver's license or my cell phone number changed first on this magnificant day that he has so richly blessed me with, but I seem to find the holy book somewhat lacking on guidance in this matter.

Maybe it speaks to my degree of faith, you think?

So you see, when I feel that little nudge towards the DMV, I have to wonder, "Am I letting my own fallible desires get in the way of His Will?'

HelenM

Originally posted by Talulah:

I could read the bible to try to ascertain whether God wants me to go and get my driver's license or my cell phone number changed first on this magnificant day that he has so richly blessed me with, but I seem to find the holy book somewhat lacking on guidance in this matter.

Well, don't forget those verses in John's gospel about the Holy Spirit, how He will tell you everything you need to know.

I sense that you might be trying to induce me to tell you what to do and, I do appreciate that you would come to me but I must tell you that it is between you and the LORD.

Having said that, please read on...

Maybe it speaks to my degree of faith, you think?

No, my dear, I think it is your degree of worry.

What you need to do is trust that the LORD will tell you if He doesn't want to do something; and if He is not telling you, then it's probably ok.

However, this is not carte blanche to do anything because, after all, you know that the Word of God tells you to obey the civil authorities etc. This is what governs when you are considering what to do, in matters on which the Word of God is not specific.

So you see, when I feel that little nudge towards the DMV, I have to wonder, "Am I letting my own fallible desires get in the way of His Will?'

I would suggest you meditate on that verse from 1 Peter - cast all your anxiety on Him for He cares for you.

Then enjoy that He has given you freedom of choice in many areas

Your life will be much more fun that way! God bless!

love
Helen

diana

Originally posted by HelenSL:
Well, my dear Talulah, I think you also need to pray harder about having smart-alecky retorts. That doesn't go across well in the Christian community, you know...

My apologies for inadvertently besmirching Talulah's good name. Were I capable of learning from the mistakes of others, I'd have learned from livius long ago to be careful of just this oversight. (Then again, I'm not surprised that I fell into the exact same trap as she does; sometimes I think we share the same brain.)

But for the record, I've found that smart retorts--or any retort at all, for that matter--don't go across well with the average Christian, either.

How about this? We pray that God's will be done in our lives;

But doesn't any request for God to help us be or behave differently still a request that He change us somehow? Doesn't it require some change in the Divine Plan to accommodate the request? How does this work with free will?

As an aside, I know many people do find strength and peace in prayer. Saying, "O Lord, help me have strength" is simply how they give themselves permission to be strong.

we know He wants us to be 'conformed to the image of His Son; and who could be more like His Son than the great Apostle Paul...

Does this include self-flagellation and misogyny?

so, I think we're on safe ground praying for Him to do that in us. As long as we pray it with eager expectation and faith rather than out of a discontentment with where He has us, today.

Such prayer strikes me as egocentric, Helen. Wouldn't it be more humble and loving to wish for the well-being and happiness of the rest of the world than to ask for oneself to be stronger and better?

"Where he has us." This is a hurdle I have trouble with, as well. Are we where God wants us from moment to moment? You suggest the answer is yes. Isn't it disrespectful and presumptuous to ask for Him to change anything?

It seems to me that the only reason for prayer that makes any sense in light of the scriptures is as a medium for thanking God. But even then, this is overkill, too, if He knows what's in my heart, anyway.

As for your finger, well, perhaps I should not have spoken of what I do not know. Maybe you can pray that I will have more compassion towards those who are suffering...which would make me more like Jesus, of course...

For what it's worth--coming from an atheist, and all--I think you have more than enough compassion, Helen. I suspect you wouldn't even smite a fig tree for failing to yield fruit out of season.

d

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

HelenM

Originally posted by diana:

Helen: Well, my dear Talulah, I think you also need to pray harder about having smart-alecky retorts. That doesn't go across well in the Christian community, you know...

My apologies for inadvertently besmirching Talulah's good name.

:-D

Being a fine Christian lady, I'm sure she'll forgive you ;-)

Were I capable of learning from the mistakes of others, I'd have learned from livius long ago to be careful of just this oversight. (Then again, I'm not surprised that I fell into the exact same trap as she does; sometimes I think we share the same brain.)

livius? There are three of you in that brain?

But for the record, I've found that smart retorts--or any retort at all, for that matter--don't go across well with the average Christian, either.

I daren't go there. You can probably guess why. But if you do I'll plead the Vth!

Helen:How about this? We pray that God's will be done in our lives;

But doesn't any request for God to help us be or behave differently still a request that He change us somehow? Doesn't it require some change in the Divine Plan to accommodate the request? How does this work with free will?

Oh, sure, just throw the hardest theological question of all at me! Who do you think I am, that I'd be able to answer that - God?

As an aside, I know many people do find strength and peace in prayer. Saying, "O Lord, help me have strength" is simply how they give themselves permission to be strong.

How about saying it this way: we won't try to be strong until a crisis forces it out of us, and then we realize what is in us, or until we believe enough that we might be strong, to take the risk of trying it - even though we might fail.

That takes faith - and it's not necessarily a faith in what is external to us; it might be faith in ourselves - as it were. If it's ok to use that term here . However, for Christians perhaps it is faith in God which enables them to have faith in themselves. It's like the kid who says "Weeeelllll, ok...if you come with me I guess I could try it..."

Same result as someone who can self-talk themself into trying it - alone, based on their own strength.

Helen: we know He wants us to be 'conformed to the image of His Son; and who could be more like His Son than the great Apostle Paul...

Does this include self-flagellation and misogyny?

I hope not.

So no more dropping batteries on yourself, ok?

Realistically, it probably depends who you ask and whether they have a basically healthy or disfunctional way of approaching life and relationships.

Their belief system will end up being more or less disfunctional in their hands depending on whether they have a disfunctional outlook on life or not, imo...

Helen: so, I think we're on safe ground praying for Him to do that in us. As long as we pray it with eager expectation and faith rather than out of a discontentment with where He has us, today.

Such prayer strikes me as egocentric, Helen. Wouldn't it be more humble and loving to wish for the well-being and happiness of the rest of the world than to ask for oneself to be stronger and better?

Even Christian counselors do say that to help others we need to be somewhat healthy ourselves.

So if we try to help others before we've gained some understanding of our own weaknesses, tendencies to manipulate, over-control, to seek attention at any cost - whatever it might be - until then we will probably just make everyone miserable if we try to help them when our own internal world is in total disarray.

"Where he has us." This is a hurdle I have trouble with, as well. Are we where God wants us from moment to moment? You suggest the answer is yes. Isn't it disrespectful and presumptuous to ask for Him to change anything?

I guess it might depend whether one thinks of God as a generous friend or a harsh authority figure. Friends are delighted to do what they can for friends. They don't mind being asked. They have good boundaries and can 'just say no', if need be.

It seems to me that the only reason for prayer that makes any sense in light of the scriptures is as a medium for thanking God. But even then, this is overkill, too, if He knows what's in my heart, anyway.

It's a tricky one!

But again, if one thinks relationally - if someone does something for you, you still want to thank them, don't you, even if they know you are grateful? You still enjoy saying it to them and you enjoy that you've made each other happy, as it were.

And, relationally, you enjoy talking to good friends, don't you? You don't do it 'because you have to'. You want to share things with them.

I have a feeling at this point you'll say "yeah but [talking with God is different from talking with a friend]"

And I'm not sure I'll be able to answer that in any way that is helpful, if you do.

But - I know - maybe I could pray about what the right answer is!

Helen: As for your finger, well, perhaps I should not have spoken of what I do not know. Maybe you can pray that I will have more compassion towards those who are suffering...which would make me more like Jesus, of course...

For what it's worth--coming from an atheist, and all--I think you have more than enough compassion, Helen. I suspect you wouldn't even smite a fig tree for failing to yield fruit out of season.

Thanks - however, you'd be surprised how many burnt up trees you'd find around me if you were with me 24/7...it's a bit too easy to sound awesomely compassionate on the Internet

But, fwiw, I do try and I do think I at least know what compassion is, better than those who think it means telling someone that they are going to hell as loudly and as often as possible...

love
Helen

p.s. Give my regards to Talulah and remind her not to worry too much about God's will

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Fiach

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Talulah:
[QB]I find that while praying for God's will in my life, his will starts to look a lot like mine. I mean, how do I discern his will from my own? The two seem to get all mixed together.

[Fiach]Most of us can think to ourselves using words as though we were having a conversation "with ourselves." This is normal, not psychotic. When dissociating as in religious charismatic states, temporal lobe seizures, and deep meditation, we generate that inner voice and converse with it. The difference is that most of when we are saying "should I buy a new fridge or is the old one alright?" "Oi, go ahead and buy the new fidge, the old one may bite the dust anytime now." But we know that the inner voice is us. In TLEs, charismatic experiences, religious hallucinations, the person hears their own inner voice as that of God."

Example, is in glossolalia, speaking in tongue, each person hears the same gabberloony gibberish. But each listener gets a different message from it. That is because the one dissociating and uttering the gabberloony is saying what his/her inner voice is saying, but the listener is hearing what his/her inner voice is saying.

Maybe when I think that God is speaking to me and revealing his divine will for my life, it is just my mind playing tricks on me. Sometimes I just get so paranoid. Is that really God's still small voice that I hear in my ear?

[Fiach] Don't think I am slagging you, lass. But I think you are hearing that inner voice made up of stored memories, emotions, and desires. It is just that sometimes you fail to recognise it as you. I suppose believers think that it is really God and I could never convince them otherwise.

Cheers,

Fiach

HelenM

Believers might say, how do you know it isn't God?

But, I think I had this conversation here before about the 'inner voice'; rw was involved in it and it was right before he posted here about his deconversion, for the first time.

love
Helen

John Page

Now I know there isn't a god, it couldn't possibly have invented you guys.

Cheers, John