Vorkosigan

some say Padre Pio's stigmata was miraculous...whats your take? self mutilation?

Yes, and sympathetic audiences. Didn't the Vatican's own investigation show that he was a fraud?

Vorkosigan

Here is a long discussion, with links, about the construction of the Lourdes myth.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000588&p=5" target="_blank">Here</a>.

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=40&t=000646&p=" target="_blank">A discussion about miracles and protocols</a>

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=41&t=000168&p=" target="_blank">More on Lourdes</a>....

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002402&p=3" target="_blank">And yet another one</a>...

Hope these help.

Vorkosigan

Amie

If I ever go to Lourdes I want to bring you bunch of skeptics with me

Ab_Normal

Back to the OP, and in reference to current events in the Catholic church (as a recovering RC):

If Cardinal Bernard Law were to be incinerated by lightning whilst celebrating Mass, I might give some credence to the concept of the Catholic god.

Philosoft

Hey, you saw it here first: free trip to France, Amie's buying and a prime debunking opportunity to boot!

Amie

sounds like fun...the plane ride alone...lol
how long do you think we'll be able to actually stay in Lourdes before some of you managed to get us kicked out?

Family Man

I'd say none of them have been proven.

But the problem with "healings" is that we can't be sure that natural processes didn't produce the effect. That is why Victor Hugo's crack about there being no artificial limbs is so apropos -- there is no clearcut example of a miracle that I'm aware of.

In all likelihood. I think I read something somewhere that his stigmata was clearly faked, but I might be confusing him with another charlatan.

No, they really do depend on unknowns. We don't know why so many people reported the sun dancing around at Fatima, so it must have been a miracle. We don't know how the stigmata appeared on Padre Pio, so it must have been a miracle. Of course, a true miracle claim would still require an unknown -- that's true -- but it would be nice if there were no other possible explanations for them.

I would. You claim that Lourdes, Fatima, and Padre Pio are examples of miracles. To account for that, you must postulate another realm, called the supernatural. My explanation doesn't require an additional realm -- it is purely naturalistic. Hence, yours has the burden of explaining why we should believe this extra realm exists.

Strictly speaking, you didn't. However, you do believe that miracles occur and you mentioned several. I simply inferred that because you believe the miraculous explanation over the naturalistic one, you must prefer the former.

I'll agree it is a personal belief. But I do think the naturalistic is the better explanation by far.

I know you're not being antagonistic. While I obviously disagree with you, I'm not trying to be either. It is quite refreshing to have a conversation with a believer on this board where I can state my views knowing the response will be genial. You post with charm and grace and it is much appreciated.

I have read some things about Lourdes, yes. It is my understanding that the medical supply industry in France loves Lourdes considering that nearly everyone who leaves their crutches and walkers there need a new one in a day or so.

I'm sure that's true.

Amie

Hi Family Man

outside and objectively...yeah you're right.

I agree with your statement however tumors disappearing and such, cancers being unexplainably gone seems more than just natural healing to me..

I've never read that it was faked, although there probably is something on that somewhere since many people believe it was faked...

yes it would be nice for no explanation other than miracle.

I understand that I am the one making the claim and that the burden of proof is on me however i don't have proof for the miracles themselves. I wish I did. Do you feel that you are being closed off to the possibility of any miracles happening?
Do you think the answer always lies within our natural world? no exceptions?

I don't necessarily prefer it, however I do believe that sometimes the miracle itself is the answer to the unknown in question...
however if an event transpired I would not automatically assume "miracle" I would first look at the other possibilities.
I have a story in mind, but I have to google it first to get names and dates and things of that nature. I would like to hear your opinion...I believe its a miracle, but I want your take

I think sometimes it is, yes...

Thanks Family Man I think you're a sweetheart

Jobar

Amie, from a very early age I've been a big fan of science fiction and fantasy. I too would be delighted to witness something which I could reasonably call a miracle- but the fact is that I have never in my life seen anything I'd call unexplainable, much less miraculous. One of the reasons that fewer 'miracles' happen now than in ages past is that we simply understand the world so much better. Maybe this makes the world less wondrous, but it does makes it a safer and more comfortable place to live.

You speak of your beliefs; none of us doubt your honesty or sincerity in holding them. We have to ask though, just why do you hold the beliefs you do? You admit you have never seen any miracles. You have only read about them. You've read about hobbits and orcs and fire-breathing dragons, too, but I'm sure you don't believe in those things.

Biff said above that religion is something inflicted upon you, not something that springs from within you wordlessly. I have to agree.

Mad Kally

Why go all the way to Lourdes? Stay home and watch <a href="http://www.tbn.org" target="_blank"> TBN. </a>

You can put your hand on the TV screen and Benny Hinn will heal you.