Kent Symanzik

Thanks babelfish, for this encouraging word. You are right that it is difficult to keep up and respond thoughtfully to everyone. I'm responding to your post now before others because I think I have enough time during my lunch to do it.

Yes, I think we will find morality in all peoples at all times because God has created us all and we are created in His image. This gives us a knowledge of what is right and what is wrong. We do not always act accordingly though because we are born in sin.

I didn't mean to assert that our constitution is. I actually do not know. I believe there were Christians involved and it was founded on an idea of God perhaps.

But, yes, I believe there is morality evident in other countries like Japan.

Yes, God is active in their lives and they are made in the image of God. One thing that I have not yet mentioned is what Christian theology calls common grace. Common grace means that God is gracious to everyone whether they believe or not in ways that do not involve salvation. God restraining evil would fall under common grace.

Thanks for the good questions.

Kent

Kent Symanzik

Hi Keith,

You are right, I have been ignoring your posts lately. But, it just seems that every time I respond to you it only serves to irritate you more. I do not wish to do that.

I may have missed how you supported absolutes or forgotten about it. Please refer me to your defense of absolutes and I will respond.

Thanks

Kent

babelfish

You're welcome! Thanks for the prompt answers.

Now I have another question (I'm starting to feel like a pest): If, as you say, the grace of God flows through all of us, and makes us behave morally, whether we are Christians, or pagans, or non-believers, then what proof do you have that Christianity is superior to all other faiths?

Although I may be being presumptuous - perhaps you really don't think Christianity is a superior moral system. Perhaps you chose your faith arbitrarily, or because it was the faith in which you were raised, or one that other people around you subscribe to, as happens to the majority of people around the world. I haven't heard of very many people who made a detailed study of all the different religions in the world, and on that basis chose the one they felt was the truest one.

So (and I realize this may be a personal question that you don't feel comfortable answering, or one that may require too much time to answer, so if you don't, I won't feel insulted), how did you personally reach the conclusion that Christianity is the world's truest religion?

Edited to add: Or do you believe that although other systems of morality may function just as efficiently as Christianity, only your religion offers a path to salvation and eternal life? And that the only reason God continues to inspire other people to behave relatively morally, is to protect his chosen ones (i.e. Christians) from evil as much as possible?

[ September 10, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]

[ September 11, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]</p>

Keith Russell

Kent:

It’s not that I’m upset or angry (I'm neither) but I am frustrated by your evasions.

Before a viewpoint can be considered rational (or irrational) one needs to understand to which concept the word reason refers. You have consistently claimed that your worldview is rational and objective, yet your argument—if I understand it correctly—is actually circular.

You claim that one of the ways we can know that ‘God’ exists, is because reason works. Yet you claim that reason can only work because God exists.

You offer no independently verifiable evidence to support or defend this position, yet you maintain both that God exists, and that believing that God exists is a rational view. To be judged 'reasonable', a claim must be supported by independently verifiable evidence, yet your claims are not.

I believe that your view is not a rational one, but is instead faith-based: you believe God exists because you 'desire to believe', not because there is evidence to support your belief. You acknowledge that your view involves several presuppositions, yet you fail to realize that presupposition is arbitrary: not based on reason.

You are free to claim that ‘God’ exists, and you are free to believe it if you wish. But, you are not free to claim that your views are rational, and have that claim go unchallenged.

Keith.

Kent Symanzik

Hello Sir drinks,

Actually it is the other way around. I'm asking you to recognize that we act rationally. Then I ask what presupposition provides a foundation for that rationality. My answer is Christian theism.

No, because not anything can actually provide a basis for rationality. Since you presuppose an atheistic world I have been asking you to provide a foundation for rationality with that presupposition.

I'm not sure what is meant by completely intelligible. My argument is this: The laws of logic exist and are universal and invariant. Only the Christian God provides a basis for the universal and invariant laws of logic. Therefore, the Christian God exists.

Sorry it took so long to get to your post.

Kent

K

Kent,

I see that you use the universality and invariance of logic as your "proof" of God. If the laws of logic were not universal and invariant, would you believe that God did not exist?

I'll give you fair warning that this is a trap. The laws of logic are not universal.

Jack the Bodiless

How is that different to what he said? There is still no reason to assume that Christian theism IS actually the basis for rationality.
Done.
Please stop calling this an argument: it is not. An argument has a structure: specifically, to be considered sound, it must rest on true premises.

The statement "Only the Christian God provides a basis for the universal and invariant laws of logic" is pure bunk. I understand that you WANT it to be true. But your own wishful thinking does not MAKE it true.

Kent Symanzik

Hi daemon,
I think it might be more fruitful to have you explain why the Christian presupposition is arbitrary. I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that all presuppositions are arbitrary.

I'm not sure what additional reasoning you need. The Christian God who is the creator and sustainer of all things is rational and created all things that way.

I mean that atheistic foundations that I know of do not provide a basis for the universal and invariant laws of logic. In the atheistic view, the world was not created rationally but rather happened by chance. There no rationality inherit in the universe.

You may need to clarify. If your presuppositions do not provide a foundation for rationality in the first place how can they be rationally justified.

Kent

Kent Symanzik

Hi K,

Honestly, I would probably doubt my own understanding of the laws of logic before I would doubt God's existence. But, I am interested in you explain why/how the laws of logic are not universal.

Kent

Kent Symanzik

Hi Jack,

Maybe the problem is that you have provided a rational atheistic foundation for logic that I do not accept. If that is the case then we should discuss your atheistic foundation instead of going back and forth like we have.

Kent