excreationist

I don't agree with what you're saying here... perhaps it only would apply if that strongest individual was some kind of charismatic dictator. In most societies everyone needs to compromise their own desires a bit for the sake of others.

Ierrellus

Nial,

In the Chex scenario you presented, I believe all of your actions could be explained by physical cause and effect, but your choices could not. You get the munchies, hunger. So you choose to oblige the need; but perhaps you chose to get just a snack to tide you over until dinner is served. Then you might choose to walk to the store rather than drive because the store is within walking distance. At the store you choose which snack you would like to have.

There are only twelve basic sounds on my piano keyboard. The structure of the keyboard as to what sounds it can make is predetermined. The language of music is also predetermined. Some notes sound better to me with one (predetermined as to sound) chord background than with another.
Within all of the piano's and music's predetermined structures, I am free to choose my own music. Since a few million songs have been created from these twelve notes and their octaves, I believe I can impose free will within the predetermined structures.

Ierrellus
pax

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ierrellus ]</p>

Liquidrage

I don't see why all the hub-bub to try and squeeze morals into determinism as if it's a square peg and a round hole.

Wolves enforce morals in packs (I'll gladly expand this if anyone disagrees).
Do wolves have free will?


Falling back on my computer analogies.

I could write 2 programs.

One that creates files based upon some predetermined characteristics but also with much randomness. This program is capable of tracking files that it makes, and uses those files as feedback to create other files. In other words, it can replace the randomness based upon earlier results.

I can make a 2nd program that judges files. It looks for certain characteristics in the files it finds. This program can attempt to alter files to meet it's predetermined characteristics. If it finds it cannot alter a file to meet its standards, it can then delete this file. This program also has the ability to replace the characteristics it looks for with characteristics it commonly sees. In otherwords, if it's also looking for the letter "b" in a certain place, but find a "c" and deletes some. It may eventually accept that "c" is ok and replace "b" with "c" in it's own memory.

This scenario is a very primative morality.

I could even write the programs so that one is "male" and the other "female", where both have the ability to write half a needed file which is combined and then judged by both.

This scenario gets pretty cool when you write files that are actually code and get compiled by the previous programs (really still by the compiler but the previous programs call it) and then started by the programs. These baby exe's are actually the same as the parents and in turn look for other programs to reproduce with. Eventually you end up with many programs all judging the files slightly different with only the "winning" files being compiled.

I see no problems with morals and determinism.

Kharakov

Don't your previous experiences determine what choices you are going to make?

The accrual of scientific knowledge acknowledges determinism. (especially considering scientific knowledge is based upon prior experiences)

The fields of psychology and sociology can predict, to a limited extent, what actions individuals will carry out in certain situations. Through the accumulation of knowledge these sciences will be able to predict individual responses with ever greater accuracy. This in turn will determine what actions they take in order to meet their desires. Ad infinitum...

DRFseven

Absolutely! Otherwise, we'd have no way of choosing anything. It's hard for me to imagine that some people think there is some other means of figuring out what to do.

Kharakov

Can we then establish that what you decide to do is predetermined by your prior experiences?

John Page

No, or at least not yet, because we don't understand how we decide. Furthermore, it is possible that the way in which we make decisions will prove either impractical or impossible to emulate.

Finally you might be interested to take a look at the <a href="http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/PrisonersDilemma.html" target="_blank">Prisoner's Dilemma</a> which involves co-dependent choice - suggesting that emulation of some individual's choice would require modeling of all "influences".

So, short of time-travel I can't see proof of predetermination in the behavior of humans being readily available. We'll just have to rely on correlations e.g. depressed people are more likely to commit acts of desparation.

Cheers, John

Kharakov

Try this then.

1) Only the factors that influence the decision making process have an outcome in the final decision.

2) All of these factors must be present at the time of the decision in order to be of some influence upon the decision reached.

3) We can not predict what every single factor of the decision making process is.

4) We know that the outcome of the decision is predetermined because all of the factors that are present at the moment of the decision determine the outcome of the decision.

No other possible outcome can be reached. Consciousness has the ability to modify its future decisions based upon past experiences. It is one of the influencing factors. You cannot get away from the fact that what lead to the evolution of consciousness and consciosness itself are both predetermining factors in every decision. It does not matter whether or not we can exactly predict the outcome of a scenario because we do not know all of the factors involved.

Thanks for your time,

K

Mr. Sammi

I can see the decision being made as determined, but its outcome can be unpredictable. Example. Every Wednesday I go to the movies. I have a choice between, 7 & 10. I have been doing this for 10 years now. At the 7pm show there are usually more people than the 10pm show. I decide between the two depending on how many people I wish to see at the movies. So tonight I choose 10pm. OK not so many people are generally there for the 10pm show. Deterministic decision making.

I arrive at 9:45 only to find the show already sold out...

NO movies for me, wah, wah.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

Ierrellus

"Free" will is the ability to move within the confinements of pre-established boundaries.

Ierrellus PaX