wildernesse

No, I'm saying that the souls in "heaven" are ones that don't have sin accounted to them. Jesus' did not sin--so he rightfully doesn't have any sin accounted to him. Traditionally, Christians are forgiven of their sins and their sins aren't accounted to them.

However, most people who I'm familiar with speak of an "age of accountability". The time when we are aware of doing wrong and do it purposefully. Since babies etc. aren't aware of doing wrong, then they can't do it purposefully--hence no sin. But no one can pin you down on when the age of accountability kicks in--2, 6, 13?

If you don't understand what you're doing is wrong, does God count that against you? This is really the question that age of accountability tries to answer. Even if a child lies and knows he's lying--can he understand the consequences of that, etc? If not, why would God count that against him?

This really surprises me--I can remember reading some fictional story that dealt with the idea of Original Sin and wondering why anyone believed that. My family are very conservative Christians, and none of them teach Original Sin doctrine. I had never heard of "live" people really believing that until I was in high school or college.

--tibac

alek0

This is actually what puzzles me most in Adam and Eve story. If they didn't know right from wrong before eating from the tree, how could they have been accountable for their actions. If they haven't seen anyone die before, how could they have understood "if you eat from the tree, you will die".

Stephen T-B

and (sorry to plug this one,) why DID God put a Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden? If Adam and Eve weren’t allowed to eat its fruit and God didn't need to (he already had the knowledge), what was the point?
Those who believe the Genesis stories are literally true are obliged to account for this (along with alek0’s point), but even those who regard them as allegorical aren’t off the hook, Genesis being the introduction to their primary religious text.

Mageth

However, most people who I'm familiar with speak of an "age of accountability". The time when we are aware of doing wrong and do it purposefully. Since babies etc. aren't aware of doing wrong, then they can't do it purposefully--hence no sin. But no one can pin you down on when the age of accountability kicks in--2, 6, 13?

If you don't understand what you're doing is wrong, does God count that against you? This is really the question that age of accountability tries to answer. Even if a child lies and knows he's lying--can he understand the consequences of that, etc? If not, why would God count that against him?

I have some issues with the "age of accountability" theory. There must be some absolute instant in time that is the "threshold". A millisecond before, one goes to heaven through the accountability loophole; one millisecond after, and it's off to hell (or to wherever one thinks "sinners" end up). Further, is there one set threshold age for everyone, or does each person have his or her own threshold, apparently assigned by some criteria God has instituted? And if so, what are those criteria?

A thought experiment to hopefully illustrate a problem the "age of accountability" threshold leaves one with. Imagine little Bobby, walking along one day. He sees someone drop a dollar in the street, dashes out to pick it up. Though Bobby has always been a good boy, he's considering putting it in his pocket and not returning it to its owner.

Two things happen while dashing out into the street. Bobby suddenly, unknowingly, crosses the threshold of the age of accountability. And, unfortunately, Bobby didn't see the car coming and is killed instantly, only a fraction of a second after crossing the threshold.

So Bobby is condemned to whatever fate for the sake of a millisecond?

Mageth

If there was no Adam & Eve to bring about The Fall, then where does the taint of sin come from and why would Jesus be needed to save us?

Since the theists on this thread seem to be stumbling around a bit on this topic, so I'll step in and fill in the gaps for them:

[theist apologetics mode]

Through their rebellion, A&E are responsible for introducing the sin nature to humankind - the propensity to rebel against god and seek one's own glorification, rather than god's. [NOTE: this would hold true whether A&E are interpreted literally or as symbolic representations for early humankind]

And according to the bible, no one is able to overcome that sin nature on their own - "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of god", "there is no one righteous; no, not one", etc.

Err, except Jesus, of course, who took the form of Man to live a blameless life, overcoming the sin nature, and thus to be a worthy sacrifice for the world - John 3:16. By accepting him, one can take on his sinless nature, putting off the sinful nature and becoming a "new creature" in him, thus reconciling oneself with god, and escaping the otherwise inescapable fate of those that rebel against god.

[/theist apologetics mode]

Starboy

I suspect that we may never understand the origins of "original sin" since the culture that created it is long gone. From things I have read and thought about I suspect “original sin” reflects that fact that all living creatures desire to live and that being killed by another creature would be considered a terrible act. Since we are predators, we must also kill and thus transgress against other creatures to live. This is the sin we humans all committed in the distant past. In this day and age most of us are separated from it, but at the dawn of the A&E myth the concept of naked Adam and Eve (innocents) eating at the urging of Eve from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (knowledge that life kills life) at the urging of the serpent (giver of wisdom) and then being cast out of Eden (thus woman giving birth to humanity) who then must live in a world where life kills life (original sin), all made great sense. But in the 21st century it is just a myth and says more about humanity then anything else. What amazes me is how anyone could mistake it for anything other than a myth.

Starboy

Mageth

Yes, wary of all atheists who simply don't want God to exist;

It'd be kind of cool if a god existed. God's not Tinkerbell, though; we can't wish it into existence no matter how much we clap our hands.

who do not wish to live forever

It'd be kind of cool to live forever, or at least to have the freedom to live as long as one wanted to. I'd suspect most if not all atheists around here would agree to that. But once again, wishin' don't make it so. From the evidence at hand, life ends at (physical) death. A bit of a cold, hard fact, but one I've learned to live with.

and want all to fall with them.

Huh? First, being an atheist, I obviously don't think I'm falling or am going to "fall" at some future point. Second, even if I did think I was falling, I wouldn't wish it on anyone else - everyone must make up their own mind.

Further, in holding the belief that I and other atheists are "falling", you are the one that wants others to "fall".

Mageth

who then must live in a world where life kills life (original sin)

I've never heard "life kills life" asserted by xians as the "original sin". Instead, they hold that rebellion against god is the "original sin".

Starboy

Mageth, I understand that. But Christians got their myths from Jews who got their myths from other places. I can picture in my mind the origins of the concept beginning in the minds of those who made the cave drawings contemplating the act of "life killing life" and wishing to atone to the creatures for the terrible act that made their own life possible.

Starboy

atheist_in_foxhole

I would love to find out that a friendly, caring god was watching over us and protecting us, and I would be absolutely overjoyed to be re-united with lost friends and loved ones in an afterlife. But unlike you I choose to face reality, not a comforting fantasy.

You need to face the REALITY that Yahweh is just as imaginary as Zeus, Allah, Thor, Apollo, Ra, and the thousands of other gods that we humans have invented over the millenia. Until you do, you will be enslaved in the dark, cold dungeon of religion. Set yourself free already!