Spaz

as much effort as it's worth

diana

Is it? I thought there were far more Muslims than Xns. Hmmm.

How do you know it has "the most accurate copies"? The originals, as it was amusingly pointed out earlier in this thread, were lost long, long ago.

You know it has the least time span between original and first copy? The least of what?

What does either of these "proofs"--which, due to the sweeping nature of your assertion, you will be completely unable to support--have to do with the presumed truth of the book?

Oh yes. The Argument from Popularity.

Since you clearly are unfamiliar with this fallacy (that is, a flaw in logic), I'll explain. The number of people who buy into something has no bearing whatsoever on the truth of that thing.

If it did, the Xnty would never have gotten off the ground, because there were FAR more people who believed in Ahura-Mazda when that religion began than believed in Xst.

Why, conquest, of course.

How do you think Islam has spread the way it has? War. Believe in our god or we'll lop your head off. And by the time the conquerors leave, the religion (whoever's it is) has taken, and often sticks. This is probably because the religion of most people is not so much a belief as it is a habit.

Please learn some basic history about your religion (at least) before you come here and try to be sarcastic. Again, I cringe for you.

So is it safe to say that the billions and billions of Muslims since Mohammed--a religion that boasts far more adherents than Xnty in the world today--are suffering from "mass delusion"?

Ye gods.

d

Gooch's dad

Magus, here are several answers to your question. (Edit--although I see diana has beat me to it)

1. The number of people that believe something has no bearing on whether that belief is true. So the fact that billions of Christians have and still do believe in Christianity is completely irrelevant as to whether Christianity is a true belief. The technical term is argumentum ad populum--argument from popularity.

2. Lots of other beliefs have had billions of adherents--Hinduism and Islam are the best examples. Are you even slightly swayed by that fact? If not, then why should we be swayed by the number of Christians?

3. Christianity has been described as an 'effective meme'. What this means is that it is a popular idea because it is simple and promises a great reward. It speaks to a primitive need in many people, to have someone love them no matter what. And the idea that you can live forever just by believing in some ancient sacrifice couldn't be more simple.

But the fact that it is a simple and attractive idea to many people also has no bearing whatsoever on whether it is true or not.

Many of us have read extensively the tripe references you toss out, like McDowell and the pages at CARM. It isn't the least bit convincing, because it is based on bad history, presuppositions, and double standards.

Are you actually willing to read some books on the subject that WE suggest? Hmmm? Up for the challenge or not?

Cheers,

-Kelly

Mageth

Well let me ask you all this. If the Bible is a legend, completely fictional - why is it the most influencial book in history, why does it have the most accurate copies with the least time span between original and first copy, why is it the most well known, popular book on earth in over 2000 languages.

After all, tons of fantastic fictional stories were made up during those days - why have none of them had the overwhelming effect that the Bible has? No other holy religious book has had anywhere near the influence the Bible has.

Oh wait, maybe i can answer myself - the billions and billions of Christians since the Bible was written were and are suffering from mass delusion?

This is largely a version of the logical fallacy argumentum ad populum, or argument from popularity (see here ). Put simply, the popularity of a belief is not a valid argument for its truthfulness. In this case, the popularity of the bible is not evidence of its authenticity.

A very similar argument could be posited for the Koran, Hindu, and Buddhist religious texts; after all, they are very influential, have been accurately copied (perhaps more so, in spite of your assertion, than the bible), and are very well-known and popular.

diana

Magus,

While I was typing the above, you wrote the following:

Be advised, this is a bulletin board. If you want real time chat, you're in the wrong place.

It just so happens that I was responding to your post, but in the grand scheme of things, I could have been doing any number of things and still not been "blowing you off," as you suggest in your post. I could have been reading another thread, having just posted in this one. I could have been mowing the lawn, eating dinner, or picking my ass.

Please refrain from childishly implying people can't answer your question simply because they didn't click, speed read, and respond instantly.

Also, from a mod's standpoint (and I am not a mod of this forum, but just so you're advised), you might consider the merits of keeping a cool head about you. You came here and picked a fight. You're throwing so much shit in our direction, it's difficult to respond to any of it without asphixiating. You're becoming more sarcastic. Don't lose your cool and become abusive. Show at least a fraction of the patience with us that we've shown with you.

Thanks.

d

Abacus

Actually, Diana, Christianity has somewhere around 2 billion followers (nearly 1 billion in the Catholic Church alone!) while Islam has around 1.2 billion followers. Of course, those numbers vary a bit depending on your source, but Christianity without a doubt still outnumbers all others significantly. Of course, a hundred years from now it is quite possible that Islam will be in the lead.

GreggLD1

And the arguments just get lamer and more desperate.

Now, it's the old "It's popular, so it must be true." (argumentum ad populum fallacy, thank you, Mageth.)

First, nobody's said the Bible is completely fictional. It's a mixture of fact, legend, and myth. And parts of it, like Psalms, Proverbs, Song of Solomon, etc., are neither fact NOR legend, but simply praise songs, poems, laments, and the like.

Second, the Bible is the most well-known, popular book on Earth because Christian countries became globe-spanning colonial powers, bringing the Gospel to benighted souls everywhere (while taking their lands and resources and giving them smallpox).

Third, other books have impacted history in ways comparable to the Bible--consider Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, and Mao's Little Red Book. And writings such as Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason helped give birth to American democracy.

Fourth, are you unaware of the fact that a billion Chinese and millions of other Asians are not Christians, and that Islam is currently the fastest-growing religion on Earth?

Fifth, if you think the billions upon billions of people who have and do practice Buddhism, Shintoism, Hinduism, Islam, and other faiths are deluded, then why can't Christians be, too?

Gregg

Mageth

Is it? I thought there were far more Muslims than Xns. Hmmm.

Actually, there are an estimated 2 billion Christians (lumping in RCs, protestants, and all other flavors) and about 1.3 billion Moslems in the world today. Anyway, that doesn't validate the argument; it's still an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

diana

Really? Wow. Thanks for the correction. I think the point still stands, but...I wonder where I got the idea Muslims outnumbered Xns?

And are we talking professed Xns or True Xns here?

d

Eudaimonist

A book doesn't have to be accurate to reality to be popular. Why do trashy television shows on Big Foot, UFOs, and the Loch Ness Monster often get higher ratings than serious science programs?

Popularity is no guarantee of truth. The Bible is popular because it appeals to many people emotionally, not because it conforms to reality.