Starboy

If he wants to know if he is being drawn by god, atheists are the last people on earth he should be asking.

Starboy

AquaVita

Bumble Bee Tuna,

I have edited your post because it contained an inappropriate insult. Please abide by the forum rules and policies, which include the following:

Thank you

Sabine Grant

I could have benefited of other systems religious or non religious to go thru the process of recovery and even longer process of healing. However... there is a uniqueness in Christ I have yet to see demonstrated in other systems. Grace. The ability to dispense not based on what is deserved or not deserved. That uniqueness of Grace is indispensable in my life. It is a choice. And one which fits the needs my humanity has to be healthy.

Sabine Grant

Rhea... Whispers came under the guns for stating that the witness in terms of behavior of his friends speaks volume to him.or herAnd why should it not? do you allow yourself to be moved , touched by the decent behavior of another individual whether he or she is a theist ? or are you on the defensive ? I see no flaw in what I stated. I recognize the value of Whisper's choice to allow himself or herself to validate the decency of another individual no matter what spiritual trend he may represent.
Again it is highly commendable. The need to denigrate and demean the decent behavior of another individual simply because he or she represents a belief one disagrees with is indeed prejudicial.
" millions of others" is a global representation of individuals who each have their own individuality. And again, Richard is not an exception.
I see nothing prejudicial in my focusing on the teachings of Christ when it comes to my personal cherry picking. As a christian, that is what I am supposed to do. That is my choice and it does not keep me from validating and appreciating individuals who have other choices. Especialy those who exhibit what I consider to be positive behaviors.

Sabine Grant

Bonjour Bree ! the " hole" I was left with has nothing to do with having to survive thru material means. My " hole" was the kind which makes a person not be able to be in touch with her emotions, having to fake joy or grief, unable to find worth in oneself, always afraid that the worst could happen anytime any place. Always trying to earn love. Walking like an robot thru the circumstances of life, not caring the about consequences of her actions, playing different human roles, never able to say " this whom I am, what I need, what I like or dislike". Being raised by a mentaly ill mother and a co dependent father who chose denial till his death does not leave much individuality to a child.

So what did Christ do for me? thru faith in Him, He took all that dysfunctionment and emotional detachment and taught me to accept myself. To be worthy of love. To feel profoundly my emotions and not be afraid to be moved and touched. Even better... He used those handicaps to make me someone in touch with others.
I found my humanity in Christ. One I cherish. I am content Bree. I am grateful.

HelenM

Then why didn't you tell him that? Or did you, and I missed it?

Helen

Sabine Grant

Starboy... interesting that you did not see the theists members of this forum push their theistic agenda down Whispers' throat. Helen gives him or her an encouragement... I point to how commendable Whispers' openness of the mind is but.... I have read quite a few attempts on the atheistic side to dissuade Whispers from exploring further the dynamics behind Richard's faith.
Is there a word in atheism which defines the same tendency evangelism has which is to push for a particular agenda?

I thought I would just make that observation....after all maybe Starboy, some of the theist members are actualy people who truly recognize the freedom of anyone to seek....without a need to sell their agenda. Or to doubt the genuine intent in seeking.

Even the Little Prince of Antoine de Saint Exupery found a rose to smell on his own little planet..........

Zora

Whispers,

I read your original post, and I thought..."he could be talking about my family!" That is, with one exception...the vapid look of the brainwashed that you describe from Richard, the wife and kids. My parents were loving, gentle and kind. We kids were responsible, respectful and scholarly. Our home was a warm, fun, caring place where friends and family always gathered. My friends envied me my relationship with my parents and brother. My father was the most honest person I have ever met. He was respected and trusted by everyone who sought him out for help and advice, and in his business dealings. We kids were NEVER spanked, and never put down. I could go on....but you get the idea. Oh, yeah. Dad was agnostic, and so was Mom. Me, I'm atheist. (I don't understand the "perfect peace" thing. Seems like a strong emotion now and then would be necessary for personal growth.)

My parents had one philosophy in raising us kids, and in all their dealings with everyone, always. Its simple, portable, free, doesn't require meetings and interpretation by trained professionals; Its easy to memorize, and has been infallible thus far: the "Golden Rule" which was a part of philosophy WAAAAY before Jesus. In fact, he thought it was so good, he passed it off as his own!

Infinity Lover

I'm actually inclined to think, that many people need their faith and devotion to God, to establish a level of commitment they otherwise wouldn't have been able to achieve. I think that's also primarily why the believing aspect ways so heavy within religion, and is regarded as a virtue in itself.

Rhea

I see nothing wrong with being moved by behavior. I see nothing wrong with being moved by someone's religiosity, even. I do see something flawed with being convinced of the value of religion in general by one person's actions. It is simply inescapable that the SAME LOGIC that you and he use to say Christianity is good, namely, the behavior of a single family, should eb applicable to any single family. Otherwise it is NOT AN ARGUMENT. Do you understand that? You and he are stating that THE ARGUMENT for the usefulness of religion is A FAMILY. If that is a good argument, then I should be able to use it, too! So. I say, look at the religious Andrea Yates and her family, doesn't this say something about Christianity?

Do you understand what it means to make an argument? If the argument is SOUND then anyone can use it.

Do you see what I mean? If you say you "recognize the value in Whisper's choice to allow himself to validate the decency of another individual no matter what spiritual trend he may represent." Then why do you deny me the value in doing exactly the same thing? Or does it somehow only work when religion comes up roses? That seems to be your patterns in several recent threads. An argument is sound if it makes religion look good. But the same argument is "prejudice" if it is used to show that religion has flaws.

If you can quote where I denigrated or demeaned Richard's behavior, I will retract it. Otherwise, I will accept your humble apology for falsely accusing me.

Yet you see something prejudicial in me DOING EXACTLY THE SAME THING. You are a piece of work, Sabine.

Like Andrea Yates? You are supposed to validate and appreciate her because she's a christian? Or worse yet, her husband?

Sabine, you have misunderstood. No one has attempted to dissuade him from exploring (if I am mistaken please provide a quote). They have tried to show him that the logic he used is flawed. If he finds a better argument, go for it. But the argument he presented is completely flawed. Because the SAME ARGUMENT can be used to prove the opposite. Therefore the argument (that the existence of one good christian validates christianity) IS NOT SOUND.

No one is telling him to not believe in gods. They are telling him to not count on THAT ARGUMENT because IT IS FLAWED.