alek0

For me the issue is not sentience, the issue is suffering. IMO, it is morally wrong to knowingly cause unnecessary suffering, regardless of the species. Which is why I am a avegetarian. However, I buy meat and meat based food for my cats since for them meat is necessry part of their diet. However, I try my best to get them organic meat and organic cat foods because of environmental issues.

If sentience is the only criterion why something should be eaten or not, would it be morally OK to eat brain damaged humans?

Thalia

I consider sentience to be consciousness and suffering and self-awareness to be kinds of consciousness.

Calzaer

But dolphins and great apes aren't?

Viti

I do to the best of my ability...my meat is purchased from a small local company who allows surprise visits to their slaughtering and butchering facilities and uses free range animals. I buy cage free eggs. I buy milk from local dairies when possible (where again, they welcome visits). I am not able to determine the source of leather goods unfortunately.

Anyway, I pay more and have to work harder to do this....it would be much simpler to just grab a steak outta the case at Vons.

The Other Michael

Hi folks,

Things are proceeding nicely, but I'd like to make a precautionary announcement that the MF&P mods will be watching this thread closely as "vegan/meat is murder/I like tasty animals" threads in the past have had a tendency to get ugly.

If you keep things at the level of civil discourse we'll be happy to let the thread run as long as you want to talk about it.

But if you feel the need to start flaming someone, or making personal attacks, I suggest you think twice, and then again if necessary.

thanks,
Michael
MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

meritocrat

But do animals possess a similar level of conciousness to humans? Humans are 'special' in the sense that we can imagine concepts beyond our environment. Can cattle or sheep?

Also, what if in the future it's discovered that plants can feel pain. Would you see it as ethical to eat plant-based food?

keyser_soze

I had a steak for supper, so you can guess my moral stance on it right away. Yes, animals do taste better cooked.

To the argument however...I also do not understand the debate. It is part of our diet, and always has been. I do not want anything to suffer, but I also live by eating. You do not see peta out there picketing a lion every time it eats a gazelle do you? Why not. Everyone, especially the fruitcakes(peta, baptists, etc...) all fail to understand that we are animals, like all the other animals on the planet. They survive by eating, as we do. There is no "rising" above our baser instincts. If you fail to follow the animal instincts, you ignore part of your being. And the consequences are right there to see.

kctan

A tad too unrealistic a scenario IMHO. If the AC is capable of human like emotions as to warrant us a chance to explain why we should be exempted, just smile (or whatever equivalent gesture to that AC) & that AC should know exactly why we should be spared.

Think of it this way, if the AC is that of earth like vegetation in form & whatever way they used for 'thinking' (if veges can), they won't be asking any questions at all. Just like we aren't asking whether are those veges we are eating 'sentience' or not.

Who's to say what kind of thought sequence, pattern, form or whatever ACs will have in terms of our 'empathy' ? If they are closed to us interms of such faculty (esp. 'empathy'), there won't be a need to question whether such an AC will spare us or not. If they want to eat us, they will, regardless of how we answer. Just like if we want to eat pork, we will, regardless of how the pig will respond.

Who've ever asked for an opinion from your food (regardless of vege or meat) before ? If your food can communicate with you, what's the chance of you not eating it ?

Thalia

I doubt the average human has the same degree of consciousness as many animals. Of course there is very wide variation. Even Darwin said that our differences are more of degree than kind. There is some minimum form of sentience that I feel creates moral relevence. It is not all or nothing. If an animal can feel pain, or experience emotions, is that not morally relevent? The vast majority of us would agree that causing pain to a dog is wrong because it causes pain and suffering. As far as imagining concepts beyond our environment, I am not sure how that is relevent to suffering or killing. The ability to suffer, or the ability to have self awareness seem more relevent.

Second, not all humans can imagine concepts beyond their own environment, but can still feel pain, and may have self-awareness. Should we use this criteria of "special" higher human capacity when determining if we can cause them suffering?

If plants felt pain, it would still be better to be vegetarian, because it takes more plants to create meat and than to eat plants directly. And I would hope that we would try to minimize the suffering of the plants we did kill. I do not know how I would respond in this hypothetical, but I do know how I respond in the present situation, the one that is presented to us now.

When I was considering vegetarianism, I thought of this, too. I also remembered that humans have also worshipped dieties, killed other humans, been cruel to each other raped and enslaved, etc. since our inception, and this line of reasoning was an appeal to tradition. It stopped making sense to me that I should let the behaviors of prehistoric man determine my behavior now if I can live fine, if not more healthily with fewer animal products. We rarely look to cavemen or animals in making other kinds of ethical decisions. Humans may have stopped physically evolving, but our ability to reason about, question, and innovate our behaviors has not.

Furthermore, with the exception of hunting (about which I have no strong opinion) I don't think the way we currently raise and slaughter animals is very "natural" anymore. ETA Since I was a small child, I have felt empathy around animals, not salivation or a desire to kill. And I never killed any of the animals I ate (kudos to those of you who have) I personally feel my instinct to harm less is stronger than that of killing. But I agree with you in that denying our desires can be harmful. (especially around sex!) We might all be happier if we all lived like Thoreau or Kazinsky out in nature and stared at the computer less.

As far as animals killing other animals, I doubt I could nor other humans could stop all suffering in the world, and probably would create more over all from the vast ecological destruction that would result. Even we should or should not, I can still reduce the suffering I cause by eating lower on the food chain. If I were a carnivore like a lion which could not eat without meat, I might kill my own animals and eat them, for the reasons you state, that if we desire to live, it is impossible not to harm other life forms. I would still try to do so in a way that minimized suffering and harm.

(and PETA is an annoyance to many if not most vegetarians/vegans/animal welfare/rights supporters. so please dont' think they represent all of us!!!)

When I first gave up meat, it was solely in response to the brutality in factory farms, not because I was opposed to meat eating in general. I was terrified of the idea of never eating meat again (and very reluctant and tentative!), but it was really not bad at all, but preferable. Once I had reduced my participation in animals for food, I was able to consider these ideas with much less cognitive dissonance. That is when I developed my stronger stance.

But since I have eaten meat (and lots of it- Ribs and bacon were my favorite, I liked my burgers rare, my steaks bloody) the majority of my life, I have not forgotten the other point of view, and don't think less of anyone with it. We are not so different!

Sabine Grant

Wonderful post Thalia! outside of the moral aspect of being a vegetarian, we need to recognize the health benefits. None of the vegeterians I have met suffer thru the ailments which result from high cholesterol content in our omnivorous diet. I think also the illnesses which can be transmitted by the comsumption of meat are an indication that eating meat may not be so healthy.
I have eliminated beef from my diet and hope to progress to consuming less and less meat products.

I have not considered the moral aspect of consuming anything which can suffer....or has any form of consciousness. Health is definitly what would motivate me to become a complete vegetarian.
Which leads me to think that moral choices can also engender a healthier lifestyle.
It seems that being concerned with the ethics of eating animals raised for the purpose of our diet will contribute to better health.
So I admire vegetarians for having reached a positive goal for themselves.