Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Oolon Colluphid · 01-29-2002, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
oolon

yip thats it simple as that.

now its up to you to show me otherwise.

Lets star by say one small thing.

How did life come about?

virus or bacteria being from some of most simple forms. explain me exactly how it formed from pure atoms...

Wrong forum. Try <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000154" target="_blank">this new thread</a>, created specially for you...

TTFN, Oolon

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Oolon Colluphid ]

sbaii · 01-29-2002, 05:59 AM

So far it seems in my opnion and from the little posts most atheist are just "fed Up" with Christianity,besides the fact that they look for proof of God and to date found nothing which they can agree to.

Please (atheists)Explain if otherwise .

thanks[/QB][/QUOTE]
==================================================
I would concur with Amazon's lengthy post and add that I was brought up Catholic and was obliged to memorize the catechism until grade seven. In my freshman year of college, I was away from my parents and had the space to look at the church more objectively. This is not easy to do. Religion is built on emotion, faith of my fathers etc. The Catholic church does try to be more rational but in the end, they say that it is all a question of faith. You either have it and want to believe or you don't. One moment of clarity came when I was in church in college singing one of the new songs to come out of Vatican II. The words that got to me were "Eat his body, drink his blood". Suddenly, it occurred to me that I belonged to some kind of cannibalistic group. Later I read "The King Must Die" and recognized the pagan roots of Easter. Then I began to read about the history of the construction of the Bible and the many silly and gruesome parts of the Old Testament that the Catholics ignore. History also told me how religion is used to keep the poor and ignorant in their place at the bottom by promising them eternal reward after death and condemning the rich. The more I learned about science the farther god receded into the background.
Religion is a great source of comfort to many people for many reasons, not all of them charitable. It takes a lot of strength to say, this is the way nature works and the idea of an afterlife is just a pleasant fantasy. But, it makes this life more valuable. Most atheists are educated and middle class so they are leading relatively comfortable lives for the most part. The really desperate reach out for the supernatural because they have no hope for this life. Others hang on to the religion of their parents because it would create an emotional strain to break away. Some people want to feel that the most powerful force in the universe is working on their behalf. It's important to understand why you believe what you believe and not just condemn those who think differently. Everyone wants to live forever until you stop and consider what that means. I always liked Mark Twain's statement that he preferred hell because that's where all his friends were.

jojo-sa · 01-29-2002, 06:00 AM

thanks for reply

Quote:

No proof exists of exactly what happened at the first of life, but if you are implying that God is necessary on account of this, you should at least examine what possibilities exist apart from divine intervention...

Tell me some other possibilities....

Quote:

some almost instantaneously as soon as the pure atoms came into existence.

How did the atoms come into existence? (from the big bang they say, why did big bang then give off atoms why not something else? on my little knowledge I know from nothing one can get matter and anti matter, and hence one gets quarks, guons and all those other things) but why and how come big bang exploded in to these things and these constant laws.

It seems that you are saying that atoms joined to form more compound atoms and eventually life based on 2nd law of thermodynamics.

So how did this law and others come about? did they evolve? into what will it then evolve? will the constant G later be different? (the constant describing the attraction of mass or something like that. no gravity of earth)

Why are they so constant? if they are

Did You hear about the anthropic principle?

the most simplest virus or bacteria, does it have DNY or RNA structures? if so are they as complex as other life form DNA and RNA structures?

Did you know from the oldest fossils today are bacteria and believe it or not the same bacteria still exists today. why did these bacteria not undergo evolution?

Please inform me of these, since my little knowledge dont cover it.

Jayhawker Soule · 01-29-2002, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
 ... I asked an open free question here in the hope of finding information and to date it seems as if most atheist on here comes from Christian background.

Also some info from my personal side. I grew up in a non musilm country. about 5% of population were Muslim and to date I know noboby that became atheist or agnostic from this bunch of Muslims that I knew and grew up with in this free non Muslim free thinking secular society.

Now I live in another another non Muslim country and met more Muslims here and not one of them to date has become atheist. Well this is for sure not the whole picture. perhaps there are others who know Muslims who have gone to unbelief.

Also I know people here and in the country I was born in who are unbelievers and most of them are from Christain background. A few comes from Hindu and a few from the Jewish.

but this proves nothing. that is why I put the question here just to see why this "unbelief phenomenom" exist so I can understand it better.

Lastly thanks again to al who answered

Perhaps, during your search for information, you overlooked or avoided readily available sites such as:
<a href="http://www.secularislam.org/skeptics/secularism.htm" target="_blank">New Secularism in the Arab World, by Ghassan F. Abdullah</a> who writes, in part:

Quote:

... A major movement of secular writing in Arabic has been gaining strength and depth over the last fifteen years, little reported by outsiders.1 It is going into new directions, well beyond a mere reaction to Islamic fundamentalism which grew mostly after Khomeini took over in Iran in 1979. This article is a quick overview of some of these recent writings that have come out in Arabic. ...

Secular ideas are, of course, not new in Islamic countries. Ever since the call of the prophet Mohammad in the seventh century, there have been doubters and secular writing. Some of its authors are documented in Abdurrahman Badawi's book From the History of Atheism in Islam,2 which first appeared in the 1950s and has been reprinted many times since. It brings to light some of the debates and writings that marked certain periods of Islamic history, including the derisive poetry of Abul Ala' al-Maari, the blind Arab philosopher who lived in northern Syria in the 10th century.

Perhaps, in your quest for information, you'll read something that will diminish your enthusiastic support for the obscene fratricide commanded in Dueteronomy.

Jayhawker Soule · 01-29-2002, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

Please inform me of these, since my little knowledge dont cover it.

IMO, wrong forum, right conclusion.

sbaii · 01-29-2002, 07:36 AM

Also some info from my personal side. I grew up in a non musilm country. about 5% of population were Muslim and to date I know noboby that became atheist or agnostic from this bunch of Muslims that I knew and grew up with in this free non Muslim free thinking secular society.

Now I live in another another non Muslim country and met more Muslims here and not one of them to date has become atheist. Well this is for sure not the whole picture. perhaps there are others who know Muslims who have gone to unbelief.

=================================================

Are you familiar with Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not A Muslim?" and his website at the Institute for the Secularization of Islam? Are you also aware of the lengths he must go in order to protect himself from Islamic extremists?

I have been reading the Koran and it has less to offer than the Bible. It is a collection of short references to the Old Testament,i.e., Noah, Abraham, Moses, Lot all of whom are treated the same way as prophets with, of course, Muhammed as the final prophet. Believers try to find scientific truths in it just like the Bible, but there is more nonscience just like the Bible.
The Koran is highly repetitive; most of it can be summed up in three sentences: God (Allah) created everything and is merciful. Believers will be rewarded with heaven. Nonbelievers may be rewarded with riches on earth but they are damned.
Ibn Warraq's site cites all the passages that are truly ugly,i.e., cutting off fingertips, waging war on infidels. Just like the Bible, there is plenty of fuel for any zealot's fire and it's only about one-third the size of the Bible.

sbaii · 01-29-2002, 07:53 AM

If you want to discuss the essense of Islam we could do that . on another thread or whatever aother way you prefer. Then at the same time I would like to see what system you offer. and how you make all this decisions you seem so proud of and what decisions they are exactly.

==================================================

You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage.

sbaii · 01-29-2002, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
oolon

yip thats it simple as that.

now its up to you to show me otherwise.

Lets star by say one small thing.

How did life come about?

virus or bacteria being from some of most simple forms. explain me exactly how it formed from pure atoms...

==================================================
So because science does not have all the answers right now, it makes sense to you to believe in some magical creation. The creation science people are way ahead of you.
It's very creepy to try to debate with someone who immediately falls into ad hominem attacks. And with our experience with muslim extremists and what we know about the madrases, anyone would have good reason to not want to debate with you. In this country we need to be concerned about all the Christian children being homeschooled as the vanguard of the Christian Armageddon.

Orpheous99 · 01-29-2002, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jojo-sa:
oolon

yip thats it simple as that.

now its up to you to show me otherwise.

Lets star by say one small thing.

How did life come about?

virus or bacteria being from some of most simple forms. explain me exactly how it formed from pure atoms...

Technally everything is STILL pure atoms. The universe is what atoms look like when they get together.

The most commonly used atoms are CHON atoms. BTW, how was god formed?

[ January 29, 2002: Message edited by: Orpheous99 ]

01-29-2002, 11:29 AM

[quote]Originally posted by jojo-sa:
thanks for reply

[b]Jerry=>[b]No proof exists of exactly what happened at the first of life, but if you are implying that God is necessary on account of this, you should at least examine what possibilities exist apart from divine intervention...

jojo-sa=>Tell me some other possibilities....
[\QUOTE]

I mentioned the natural scientific possibility at great length in the post you replied to. I should probably have done so in the Evolution/Creation forum and directed you there.

When I pick up this subject there (in the new thread Oolon created for you:<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000154" target="_blank">This thread</a>), I will ask you a question about the 'possibilities'....

Quote:

How did the atoms come into existence?

I only signed on to answer you first question about how life started, beginning with "pure atoms". It is curious that you are moving that beginning point backwards a few billion years to how atoms got here. Honestly, I hope you will settle the first question first & worry about how the atoms got here after you understand the scientific ideas about how life began from them, and the scientific theories describing the subsequent evolution of life.. but again.. we must do it in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000154" target="_blank">This thread</a> If we keep up this conversation here, we will be in trouble with the moderators.

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01-29-2002, 05:59 AM	#72
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	So far it seems in my opnion and from the little posts most atheist are just "fed Up" with Christianity,besides the fact that they look for proof of God and to date found nothing which they can agree to. Please (atheists)Explain if otherwise . thanks[/QB][/QUOTE] ================================================== I would concur with Amazon's lengthy post and add that I was brought up Catholic and was obliged to memorize the catechism until grade seven. In my freshman year of college, I was away from my parents and had the space to look at the church more objectively. This is not easy to do. Religion is built on emotion, faith of my fathers etc. The Catholic church does try to be more rational but in the end, they say that it is all a question of faith. You either have it and want to believe or you don't. One moment of clarity came when I was in church in college singing one of the new songs to come out of Vatican II. The words that got to me were "Eat his body, drink his blood". Suddenly, it occurred to me that I belonged to some kind of cannibalistic group. Later I read "The King Must Die" and recognized the pagan roots of Easter. Then I began to read about the history of the construction of the Bible and the many silly and gruesome parts of the Old Testament that the Catholics ignore. History also told me how religion is used to keep the poor and ignorant in their place at the bottom by promising them eternal reward after death and condemning the rich. The more I learned about science the farther god receded into the background. Religion is a great source of comfort to many people for many reasons, not all of them charitable. It takes a lot of strength to say, this is the way nature works and the idea of an afterlife is just a pleasant fantasy. But, it makes this life more valuable. Most atheists are educated and middle class so they are leading relatively comfortable lives for the most part. The really desperate reach out for the supernatural because they have no hope for this life. Others hang on to the religion of their parents because it would create an emotional strain to break away. Some people want to feel that the most powerful force in the universe is working on their behalf. It's important to understand why you believe what you believe and not just condemn those who think differently. Everyone wants to live forever until you stop and consider what that means. I always liked Mark Twain's statement that he preferred hell because that's where all his friends were.

01-29-2002, 07:36 AM	#76
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	Also some info from my personal side. I grew up in a non musilm country. about 5% of population were Muslim and to date I know noboby that became atheist or agnostic from this bunch of Muslims that I knew and grew up with in this free non Muslim free thinking secular society. Now I live in another another non Muslim country and met more Muslims here and not one of them to date has become atheist. Well this is for sure not the whole picture. perhaps there are others who know Muslims who have gone to unbelief. ================================================= Are you familiar with Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not A Muslim?" and his website at the Institute for the Secularization of Islam? Are you also aware of the lengths he must go in order to protect himself from Islamic extremists? I have been reading the Koran and it has less to offer than the Bible. It is a collection of short references to the Old Testament,i.e., Noah, Abraham, Moses, Lot all of whom are treated the same way as prophets with, of course, Muhammed as the final prophet. Believers try to find scientific truths in it just like the Bible, but there is more nonscience just like the Bible. The Koran is highly repetitive; most of it can be summed up in three sentences: God (Allah) created everything and is merciful. Believers will be rewarded with heaven. Nonbelievers may be rewarded with riches on earth but they are damned. Ibn Warraq's site cites all the passages that are truly ugly,i.e., cutting off fingertips, waging war on infidels. Just like the Bible, there is plenty of fuel for any zealot's fire and it's only about one-third the size of the Bible.

01-29-2002, 07:53 AM	#77
sbaii Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: big bad Deetroit Posts: 2,850	If you want to discuss the essense of Islam we could do that . on another thread or whatever aother way you prefer. Then at the same time I would like to see what system you offer. and how you make all this decisions you seem so proud of and what decisions they are exactly. ================================================== You offer that passage from Deut.as some kind of justification for sharia law. But what civilized person in this day and age really thinks stoning someone for any reason is right or sane? Most modern churches renounce those parts of the Bible that are blatantly archaic and downright savage.

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