Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 06-07-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
Well, I am claiming that, but that is simply what the Bible states quite clearly.

The creation of two different sets of bird species?

That only happened in randman's imagination.

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2002, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
Young translates it "fowl' in hios literal translation of the Bible, as does Lamsa who uses the Peshitta text, and so do the translators of the KJV.

What you fail to note however is that whether it is translated fowl or bird is of no consequence. Neither include bat for instance in English. Not sure why that went over some people's head. The relevant point is that the Hebrew word translated includes bats along with birds, and that isn't really wrong. Both are flying creatures.

Randman, I understand this point. However, not a single one of the translations gives any hint that the correct meaning is what you and inerrantists claim. All translate it as "bird." Note that there are a number of English equivalents for the claim you make, such as "winged creature" or "flying creature." No translation uses anything close. Ergo, your interpretation is incorrect.

An additional problem is that none of the translations gives your interpretation as a note. Most of the time, when there is a disputed passage, somebody will put a footnote in that area. But there are none here in any version I looked at (see <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com" target="_blank">www.biblegateway.com</a>). That is further indication that your claim is not supported by sound Bible translation scholarship.

Vorkosigan

{Rufus: Link edit}

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]

randman · 06-08-2002, 08:31 AM

"However, not a single one of the translations gives any hint that the correct meaning is what you and inerrantists claim."

So I guess the KJV, the Lamsa translation, Young's, etc,,don't exist...No translation exists because you say so. Man, this is why I say evolutionism is a cult. The facts are plain, very plain, but it doesn't matter. If you thought the sky was red, you would insist that it was regardless of the facts.

scigirl · 06-08-2002, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
So I guess the KJV, the Lamsa translation, Young's, etc,,don't exist

Read the posts. They exist, they just don't say what they think you do.

Why are there so many translations, if God's word is infallible? Hmmm...

scigirl

RufusAtticus · 06-08-2002, 03:40 PM

Since this has gotten into a discussion concerning biblical scholarship, I'm going to move it to BC&A.

~~RvFvS~~

Vorkosigan · 06-08-2002, 04:29 PM

randman --

The Lamsa translation is by a mystic, fraud and nut who knows nothing about Biblical translation. He translates Gen 1:1 as "Let there be Enlightenment."

As for the others, maybe you should re-read my post. "Fowl" means "bird." Find me a translation that calls owph "winged creature" and you'll have a case. Find me a translation with footnotes there and you may have a case. As far as I can see, whenever owph appears, it is translated by experts as "bird" or some related word, like "fowl."

I have no idea what your remarks about evolution were doing there, since this discussion is about inerrantism and has nothing to do with evolution.

Vorkosigan

randman · 06-09-2002, 05:22 PM

I find your blasting Lamsa, and by implication perhaps Young?, to be unbelievable. Lamsa was a scholar who grew up speaking an ancient Aramaic dialect, and I have never met anyone that considered him a fraud or a mystic. Also, the Genesis translation reads "Let there be light" just like all the rest. I have no idea where you got, "Let there be enlightenment."

Did you just make it up? I wouldn't be surprised at anything the posters do on this board. Just make up stuff, and blatantly slander a scholar for what? Just to prove a point.

If you are confused, my apologies. I hope you can understand my doubts though.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: randman ]

Jack the Bodiless · 06-14-2002, 03:57 AM

This is from a <a href="http://www.letusreason.org/Iglesia7.htm" target="_blank">Christian website</a> discussing the George Lamsa translation:

Quote:

In his bible translations he had a allegorical interpretation ignoring the plain literal translation. Here are just a few examples

Bible= Gen.1:3 "Let there be light"

Lamsa bible ="Let there be enlightenment"

So, where exactly did you get the notion that Lamsa wrote "Let there be light"?

Can you post some evidence for that?

Did you just make it up?

Perhaps we should just call you "wrongman" from now on?

Dr Rick · 06-14-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by randman:
I basically try to avoid mixing religious discussion and evolution, and stick to bashing evolution on the data, but it is the evolutionists who constantly bring up religion...

Quote:

posted by Randman on <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000676&p=7" target="_blank">another thread</a> in the E/C forum yesterday:Al things are possible with God. To raise nautralistic objections to how something could have been done is quite silly...It presupposes that God canoot intervene and cause rapid speciation...The rules for science in terms of theorizing God's intervention require a more careful analysis of when "God did it" is a logical analysis, and when it is an inappropiate argument from the creationist perspective.

[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]

randman · 06-15-2002, 10:22 AM

I have no idea what your twisted web-site states, but I have the Lamsa translation here with me. I suggest you go to a bookstore and look for yourself. It states "Let there be light" like all the rest.

06-09-2002, 05:22 PM	#137
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	I find your blasting Lamsa, and by implication perhaps Young?, to be unbelievable. Lamsa was a scholar who grew up speaking an ancient Aramaic dialect, and I have never met anyone that considered him a fraud or a mystic. Also, the Genesis translation reads "Let there be light" just like all the rest. I have no idea where you got, "Let there be enlightenment." Did you just make it up? I wouldn't be surprised at anything the posters do on this board. Just make up stuff, and blatantly slander a scholar for what? Just to prove a point. If you are confused, my apologies. I hope you can understand my doubts though. [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: randman ]</p>

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06-08-2002, 08:31 AM	#133
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	"However, not a single one of the translations gives any hint that the correct meaning is what you and inerrantists claim." So I guess the KJV, the Lamsa translation, Young's, etc,,don't exist...No translation exists because you say so. Man, this is why I say evolutionism is a cult. The facts are plain, very plain, but it doesn't matter. If you thought the sky was red, you would insist that it was regardless of the facts.

06-08-2002, 03:40 PM	#135
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Since this has gotten into a discussion concerning biblical scholarship, I'm going to move it to BC&A. ~~RvFvS~~

06-08-2002, 04:29 PM	#136
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	randman -- The Lamsa translation is by a mystic, fraud and nut who knows nothing about Biblical translation. He translates Gen 1:1 as "Let there be Enlightenment." As for the others, maybe you should re-read my post. "Fowl" means "bird." Find me a translation that calls owph "winged creature" and you'll have a case. Find me a translation with footnotes there and you may have a case. As far as I can see, whenever owph appears, it is translated by experts as "bird" or some related word, like "fowl." I have no idea what your remarks about evolution were doing there, since this discussion is about inerrantism and has nothing to do with evolution. Vorkosigan

06-15-2002, 10:22 AM	#140
randman Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 333	I have no idea what your twisted web-site states, but I have the Lamsa translation here with me. I suggest you go to a bookstore and look for yourself. It states "Let there be light" like all the rest.

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