Queen of Swords

Then why are you still here?

Duck!

EX-ATHEIST, here's a shocker for you.

I became atheist without reading a book about it.

I became atheist without having another human being convince me there's no God.

I became atheist without having some priest/religious leader/vicar/etc. tell me.

I became atheist without reading a testimony posted on the internet.

I became atheist without basing it on any religous or non-religious writings.

I became atheist without attending a single university meeting.

In short, I'm an atheist through the raw power of my own thought. I simply thought about the implications of the religion I grew up with and the religious ideas that family, friends and workmates either mentioned or were convinced of.

And in the long run I concluded that "God" (whatever you mean by that) doesn't exist.

No brainwashing.

No cult members.

No indoctrination.

No religious scripture.

No debate with my fellow human beings.

No gatherings.

Just the power of my own free thought.

You should try it yourself.


Duck!

Arrowman

Yo, Duck - me too. Well said.

The only "help" I needed was in labelling. I had decided I must be agnostic because I couldn't logically deny the possibility of God (however unlikely). Then an atheist challenged me - that I was not applying the same standards to the Judeo-Christian God (ie the one I had been brought up with, and which permeates my society) to other fairy stories like Zeus, Odin and the Tooth Fairy - all of which I was, of course, happy to say "I believe you do not exist".

That was when I took another look at the "evidence", applied Occam's Razor, and realised I was an atheist; that it does not require absolute proof of the non-existence of deities to say "on the [overwhelming] balance of probabilities, God is a human invention and therefore I am an atheist".

TollHouse

Nice one Duck! My transformation happened the same way. In fact I was very, very suprised when I found out that others have the same disbelief in Jesus/God/Allah.

EX-ATHIEST, if you're still around you'd do well to pay particular attention to Duck of Death's post.

polyglot

May I say that this has been a most interesting use of time, reading this column. As a Christian myself, reading the stories of so many ex-theists has brought me to this conclusion: the majority-reason for leaving "the faith" is just as problematic as the main reason people follow it - that reason being fear. Many here (I'd put a dollar on this one) would be quick to agree that many religious people are just in it to avoid punishment, acquire a better feeling about the bad things they've done, impress a friend/relative, or gain membership into a once-a-week social club. Just as quickly, those reasons would fail someone's logic and be dismissed. But from what I've read here (and I only know the stories as posted), the same issues are entwined in the reasons for disbelieving. It seems that many ex-believers are just relieved, not worrying about the afterlife, sin, moral obligation, pleasing God. I realize that most would say the lack of worry about these things they now experience was not the cause for their disbelief, and that it is just the relieving effect. However, couldn’t the same be said for the religious and their idiosyncrasies? I mean...my point is…that I’ve read so many of the discussions on this site that I’ve concluded that most ex-theists were motivated by psychological reasons to disbelieve what they do, not by “the facts, the whole facts, and nothing but the facts.” It seems that usually (though not always), hindsightedly, ex-theists can substantiate their reasons to disbelieve. It’s understandable. Being a Christian is not an easy ordeal, at least not from what I’ve experienced. There are a lot of things I’ve cringed at, but knew I had to go through. I know the desire to abandon what makes you uncomfortable. Now, truly, the reasons for Christian conversion are tantamount. What begins sometimes as “something missing” in a person, is renamed, post-conversion, to “a sacred calling.” I guess that motives can always be suspect, but where have they gotten us? (boy, was that an invitation for atheist doxology) I just thought I’d write this as I’ve been the silent observer for awhile and I’m really interested in those who’ve left Christianity, particularly ex-pastors and such. Thanks. For education’s sake, could someone please briefly explain, in impersonal terms, what a “troll” is. I have my conjectures but don’t feel comfy using the term yet. And, yes, I understand the wealth of openings I’ve left for ridicule, but I don’t expect I should receive any. Polyglot

brighid

Polyglot –

It seems that you posit your conclusions about atheists in a framework that many Christians do – we just don’t want to be bothered with all the rules, and it’s not that we don’t really disbelieve in god but perhaps we’re just selfish and being a Christian is too much work for us and therefore our default position is atheism.

Nothing could be farther from the truth! Most of us here are ex-Christians of one form or another. We are intimately knowledgeable with Christianity and not just through reading the bible, but through intense and exhaustive study in a myriad of fields that apply to investigating the claims of Christianity and its version of a god. As Christians we had many questions and many things that made us cringe and even times felt as if we would vomit from the stories contained in the Bible. So, in earnest we searched and must of us dearly wanted to reconcile those questions and feelings of disgust with our final conclusion being there is a god and this god is Christ. Our journeys have been long – some only a few years and others decades. And through that exhaustive and often times very painful research we have come to difficult conclusions that put us at odds with 70% of our American brethren and with most of the world. We have come to the conclusion that there is no way possible to honestly reconcile most of the Bible with our conscience.

We cannot, even for a moment, fathom worshipping a god that has hardened the hearts of men and women in order to create a justification to kill their first born, to cast plagues that kill tens of thousands of innocents, who orders the genocidal slaughter of those who oppose his chosen people simply for NOT being one of his chosen people (which of course they had no choice in), who would send a demon to attempt to destroy the love and faith of an allegedly “perfect” man … the list is too long to go into in this post. And no matter how many times a preacher, deacon, priest, pope or lay person has said to us “God is love and only love, He is mercy, He is justice – you just have to read the Bible” we cannot, under any truthful circumstances reconcile the works this God put forth in the Bible with such a ridiculous claim.

And after coming to the point where we conscientiously lifted the mental and emotional shackles of our theistic upbringing we felt relief. We were relieved that we no longer felt obligated to lie to ourselves in order to have “faith” or to “believe” is something, anything for that matter – regardless of it’s god, leprechauns, or leviathans – and to believe them as inerrant fact and truth. We felt relief that we no longer lived that lie in order to maintain acceptance with our friends, families, coworkers and community members. We felt relief knowing that any god worthy of worship cannot be the mean, cruel, vindictive, jealous, angry, capricious, contradictory god of the JC faiths. We cannot worship a god that embodies any of these qualities, not even for a single, solitary moment. We cannot worship a being whose moral standard has all too often been demonstrated to be equal to those we call evil, genocidal maniacs. We cannot worship a god who says love me, worship me only and I will give you all my love, but if you dare defy me I will destroy your physical body and then I will cast you into a lake of fire to be tortured by my henchmen for eternity. That kind of love is abusive, not unconditional, not merciful and not worthy of my human love or respect. I know too many human men who model themselves after this behavior and they beat their wives and children, hold them hostage with promises of unending love and devotion and threats of death and punishment if they should ever love another. And then they follow through with this and kill their wives, girlfriends and children. I have been the mental slave to such men and there was no greater relief then to liberate myself from their control and torture and to discover the truth. That kind of existence is no existence. I also know the love of men who have done so unconditionally. Who do not try to hold me in their clutches out of fear of loosing me, but with an open hand, with kindness and adoration. And such a beautiful love that is. And sincerely - The truth, will indeed set you free.

So it is a relief to be out from under the mental clutches of an abusive lover. It is a relief to not be burden by the ideas that I, as a woman, by no other reason then the chance of my gender, need not be subjugated or oppressed by any man. It is a relief to know that I am not evil by design and unworthy of life, except of course to bear sons for my husband. It is a relief to know that I do not have to be the property of my father or my husband and that I, as a woman have equal value to all other human life.

And the list goes on and on and on. You may say that we fail to “truly” understand the Bible and that our rebellious hearts make it impossible for us to “see” the light of god – we have heard it all before. But if your god desires that I be blind in order to see, to be deaf in order to hear, to be ignorant in order to know and to ignore the loud cries of my conscience in order to believe – then your god is not worthy of worship.

Perhaps there is a god. Perhaps there is a being that is beyond all human knowing or understanding and perhaps this god does indeed love each of us unconditionally. But this god cannot and is not the god of your bible – by mere definition.

We are not selfish children who wish to be free of our parental controls. We are not rebellious because we desire no authority over us. We simply cannot believe in your god and we are physically and mentally unable to deny what we have come to know in order to lead a more comfortable existence. We cannot be blind, deaf, dumb or ignorant for any human and surely not for any divine being, especially not for a perfect being of allegedly perfect love and mercy.

If your god does not want men and women who strive for the truth, even in the face of an entire world of opposition, if your god does not want men and women who cannot be shaken by superstition and myth for the sake of comfort in the world of men, if your god does not want men and women who live good and moral lives not because of the threat of punishment or the promise of rewards, but because it is the right thing to do, if your god does not want men and women who fight and support the freedom of all (regardless of their race, creed, gender, religion, sexuality, social or economic status, etc.), if your god does not want men and women who respect and protect the Earth so it may be here for future generations and if he does not want men and women for no other reason then they failed to believe in fairy tales – then so be it. We, atheists, agnostics, free thinkers, and all the other non-Catholics Christians of the world will burn in His hell forever. And we will do so with our heads held high.

And if this is the god you freely choose to worship then please pardon the pity we feel for you and all those like you. But please, do yourself a favor and come to the clear understanding that we have not come to our conclusions out of selfish and egotistical love but out of the sincerest and most ardent search for the truth, with deep and painful inner reflection and done so under the threat of violence, ridicule and loss of liberty – in this country and all over the world. If that is your definition of selfish – well then I think you need to take the time and examine things a bit more closely and through the eyes of those you wish to judge.

Brighid

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[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

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Ron Garrett

This certainly does not represent my journey from faith to agnosticism in the slightest. I really can't say how many others your belief is not true of, though it seems quite a few.

Believe me when I say that it is a fearful thing to cast aside the security blanket of a religious community and the fantasy that a beatific and parental deity has care for, is watching over and has an eternal destiny planned for you individually. It's a hard thing, particularly having been a leader of a religious community, to stand in front of people you love and who seem to love you, people who you've taught to believe and what to believe, and explain that after much study and consideration you realize that what you had been taught and believed, and had in turn taught them to believe, was in fact a fraud and a sham.

Imagine what it is like to go from being revered and even idolized by a group of people who consider you a paragon, to being called a serpent, a backstabber, a liar, an apostate, an enemy of Christ. You are the same man you were before, but suddenly you are an enemy to everyone of any importance in your life.

It wasn't fear of God or the rules that caused me to reject Christianity. Rather it was the truth that Christianity is false, and to stand in a place of dishonesty about it would have cost me my honor, my self-respect and sense of worth as a man. I think few in our culture become a Christian out of fear of hellfire, since many Christians don't believe God will really torture anyone for eternity. I don't think they are trying to avoid punishment for anything they've done since they have no evidence that anyone gets punished for many of the things Christianity labels an offense. The sun shines on the wicked and the righteous as it always has. I don't think the emajority are trying to impress anyone, though the politicians looking to flatter their way into leadership are pretty easy to spot unless flattery is what you live for. It is very much a social and cultural thing, an extended family to fill the gaps of the scattered nuclear family. For many, probably most, it's just the culturally conditioned thing to do. I don't believe, and I think most skeptics are intelligent enough not to assume all of the cynical reason for faith you mention apply to more than a minority. I never did worry about an afterlife. I have always seen sin in the light of ethical behavior, not the keeping of ancient tribal taboos, and a sense of moral obligation is the foundation of who I am, not to please God, but to please me. Psychology is a label, not a thing. Our minds do not operate in a vacuum without emotion, motivation, need, desire, fear, anger, love, joy, etc. I don't think anyone does anything solely on the basis of data. For myself, the data supporting Christianity was simply overwhelemed and put to rout by the data showing it to be nonsense and fraud. I set out to be an apologist, secure in my mind that God was true, the faith was true and I would gather the evidence to convert the skeptic. I ended up an infidel because the evidence I was fooled and fooling myself was absolutely overwhelming. Being human in any sense is not an easy ordeal. Being Christian makes some parts harder than they need to be and it makes other parts seem much easier. There is a lot of security in thinking you have a handbook for life. There is enormous comfort in thinking you have the ear of the creator. There is enormous safety in a group of people committed to one another in a religious way. Individual piety can be tough, but the fraternal and communal payoffs are often huge. Good insight. I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll take a stab at this.

I assume most everyone is sincere in what they believe, because I want others to assume this is also true of me. I don't believe as I do out of anger or spite, as some would like to console themselves. Being an infidel has cost me a lot, is still costing me a lot, and has gained me nothing but the satisfaction of knowing that I am being honest with myself and everyone else. That's fine. I never took a penny for ministry or expected to gain from it, though I certainly could have. The pastor at my old church lives a lot better than I do, believe me. I don't expect to gain from being an infidel, and in fact I expect to draw heat my entire life for going against the grain. It would be so much easier to just blend in, and if the effect of religion was entirely innocuous, I would just keep my mouth shut about it all.

Unfortunately religion is anything but innocuous. People kill and are killed over savage mythologies every single day. It is irrational. It is barbaric, and no tribal deity is any more barbaric than Yahweh has been in his many incarnations. teaching people they are born defective and evil is hurtful and obscene. Teaching people an anthropomorphized god with the temper tantrums of a two year old is in charge of the universe is just ridiculous. telling them they must do such and such to appease this murdering beast of a god is criminal. So, as with so many others here, I will take my stand for humanity, even if humanity would rather remain enslaved to superstitition, for the sake of others who I might persuade to spend their lives more joyously and positively than in the service of a blood eating mountain god who is more evil, petulant, bloody and baleful than any man that ever lived, that slaughters captive women and children, and whose childish ego demands assuaging with the bloody death of his own son.

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David Bowden

I only wish to add a hearty "I second that!" to Ron Garrett's post. As an ex-minister myself (Church of the Nazarene) I know exactly what Ron's talking about when he writes:

"Believe me when I say that it is a fearful thing to cast aside the security blanket of a religious community and the fantasy that a beatific and parental deity has care for, is watching over and has an eternal destiny planned for you individually."

And this is true of me as well:

"It wasn't fear of God or the rules that caused me to reject Christianity. Rather it was the truth that Christianity is false, and to stand in a place of dishonesty about it would have cost me my honor, my self-respect and sense of worth as a man."

AMEN!
(Did I say that??)

-Wanderer

Eudaimonist

Ex-Christian atheists may indeed feel relieved by not worrying about certain Christian beliefs, but I don't think that's why they are atheists. Their concerns about Christianity may have led them to think and question, but it was the thinking and the questioning that led to a rational conviction that there isn't enough reason to believe that God exists.

Atheism, for me, is in no way an escape from ethics or responsibility -- I have high personal ethical standards -- and I didn't stop believing in God simply for the sake of convenience.

Koyaanisqatsi

A "troll" is someone who barges into a room looking for a fight and then runs screaming from the room when they actually get one.

I am an atheist because I know fictional creatures don't factually exist. I learned it as a small child and, like falling off a bicycle, it has never left me in spite of my forced indoctrination into the christian cult.

It just lay there, dormant, until I could extricate myself from that "community." What a comfortable and easy world it is when you're told "This is what we believe" ten thousand times throughout your innocent formative years, isn't it? Having all your questions answered with, "Just have faith."

Simple. Beautiful. Blatant lie. Now drop that napalm in the name of Jesus! That's Jesus' napalm you're packin', kid! YEE HAW!

"...and my will lay limp in an empty world..."
-Nabokov, Despair

(edited for formatting - Koy)

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