SpaceMonkey

I'm sure this question has been asked before, because it has been present in my mind as a result of existing in the Western world.

The central notion of many of the varying xtian faiths is that those who do not adhere to their morals (believing in their God for example) are going to Hell.

Does this not seem a little harsh?

I'm interested in hearing everyone's opinions about this thought, that always presents itself when I meet a xtian.

Are other non-xtians irritated by the arrogance of such an idea?

Do xtians of the varying sub-faiths see it as just a matter of fact?

I need to know!!!



Edit:

I just realised this topic is discussed in a recent poll as well as a thread the poll links to. Oh well, I value and appreciate responses all the same.

Odemus

Is the idea of hell any more harsh than the cold indiference of nature which essentially makes every living creature a part in the food chain?From the perspective of naturalism, the permanance of my death is meaningless. I find that no matter what philosophy I choose to embrace, it's realities are all incredibly harsh.

Rachel

In the context of christian beliefs, no I don't think it's harsh.

I was raised to believe that God is our father and that if we choose to accept him then we'll be granted entry into heaven. If we don't, we will be in the alternative of hell. Not a punishment, just a consequence.

How is that any different to how it works here on earth?

If I was to refuse to have any sort of relationship with my parents, could I reasonably expect them to allow me to move back home when it suited me? I don't think so. Very few people will invite you into their home when in the past all you have done is ignore them, bad mouth them and refuse their help when it was both offered and needed.

If you rejret someone, they tend to reject you. Karma.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Rachel
In the context of christian beliefs, no I don't think it's harsh.

I was raised to believe that God is our father and that if we choose to accept him then we'll be granted entry into heaven. If we don't, we will be in the alternative of hell. Not a punishment, just a consequence.

It is a punishment if God could choose to sentence you to nothingness (i.e. obliteration of the "soul"), but he chooses instead to make you suffer for all eternity.

What purpose does eternal torment serve? It's not for rehabilitation (unless it's possible for people to leave hell). Therefore, it's plain torture - extremely harsh.

How is that any different to how it works here on earth?

We don't torture people for all eternity on earth.
We don't consider that punishing people for crimes committed by someone else is fair.
We don't think that murder and unbelief should carry the same penalty.

If I was to refuse to have any sort of relationship with my parents, could I reasonably expect them to allow me to move back home when it suited me?

If I was to refuse to have any sort of relationship with my parents, should I expect them to torture me in retaliation?

If I never actually met my parents, but was told different and contradictory things about them by different people, should they expect me to blindly trust whatever all these different people said?

If, according to my parents' biography, they had committed genocide, murdered children and permitted rape, should I approve of that?

I don't think so. Very few people will invite you into their home when in the past all you have done is ignore them, bad mouth them and refuse their help when it was both offered and needed.

Very few people will torture you for all eternity because of that, either, but the god of the bible seems happy to do so.

If you rejret someone, they tend to reject you. Karma.

So much for that "love your enemies" stuff. Jesus is a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of god, is he?

Rachel

So if you were homeless and I choose not to invite you into my home even though it was well within my ability to do so I'm punishing you? Interesting take on life. I can't say I agree.

Having the ability to do something doesn't make it an obligation.

We've been given criteria we need to fulfill to enter christian heaven. We choose whether or not we want to fulfill it. We subsequently choose what happens after our death accordingly.

Whether the christians, muslims, hinidus or atheists are right I decided my course of action and choose to accept the consequences. Don't let me stand in the way of your excuses though. I realise life can be so much easier when you always blame someone else.

1. Murder and unbelief don't carry the same penalty in regards to heaven or hell. Murder is irrelevant. That doesn't necessarily mean there won't be consequences for murder on earth when in heaven. Just that it's not relevant in this case.
2. Whether or not "hell" is eternal torture is entirely dependent on interpretation. Some christians consider it to simply be an absense of God and those there make of it what they want. Any torture that comes out of it is their own making, not Gods.
3. I don't understand when you say that God punishes some to hell for the actions of others. Perhaps I misplaced part of my bible, but the criteria for entering heaven is accepting Jesus as your saviour. No one else comes into the equation. Likely you're referring to something separate to the heaven/hell debate and it really isn't relevant to the harshness of hell.

Nope, but if as a result of not having a relationship with your parents you put yourself into a situation where torture results is it their fault?

(hint: Personal responsibility)

Belief, or lack of, is dependant on ones interpretation of their experiences and how they view the world. Your experiences tell you that christianity is a load of baloney. Your interpretion of your experiences could be wrong.

Is God to blame for that? (let me guess: Yes?)

I can't stress personal responsibility enough. Whatever your life situation, you are the one who decided not to believe for whatever reasons.

Maybe I'm odd, but I didn't decide my beliefs based on what my parents, or anyone else told me. It involved a lot of soul searching and taking in of those numerous contradictions and sorting through them until I found what I believed to be right. What I was told by various people was simply something to think about on my way. If I'm wrong then I made the mistake, not those around me, not God and not the toothfairy.

Relevance to the OP?

See above.

Context is a great thing. Look the word up.

The Other Michael

this will fit better in GRD.

Michael
MF&P Moderator (Maximus)

braces_for_impact

Quoted by Rachel
Incorrect analogy. You are neither omnicient nor omnipotent. Your holy book speak of flames, burning and gnashing of teeth. This is clearly where the bible says you go for all eternity for finite "sins" here on earth. A punishment is a consequence, but it is an activity designed to show the error of one's ways and to reinforce correct behavior. An eternity of torture is not punishment, it is as I stated, torture.

It does if the action in question is a good act and the deity in question claims omnibenevolence. Since allowing people to suffer for all eternity for finite "sins" in the real world is obviously neither good nor just, this applies here.


That's right, criteria. You must ask Jesus for forgiveness, that is the main theme here. Another form of pennance which truly never addresses the wrong in question. This would be consistent with ancient barbaric customs of morality.


Don't confuse blame for proper accountability. If I as an atheist do something wrong, I am accountable, and I must make amends to the person I wronged. A higher power is not necessary nor desired. The idea that I should pray to a deity for forgiveness for a transgression as opposed to attempting to make amends to the person that was hurt by my misdeed is ludicrous. Considering your god (or at least his followers) give him the characteristics of being omniscient and omnibenevolent, then any evil we see WOULD be the direct responsibility of your god. What you do is attempt to rationalize your world view by making man responsible because logically you can not reconcile a god that is all good with all the evil that takes place in the world today, much of which is NOT any direct result of humans. You would rather blame your fellow human beings even though you have no idea how moral they are, than challenge your beliefs. I find this sad.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

Some Christians may consider it that, but the bible clearly states it as a place of burning and torture. Remember Jesus' parables? If you dismiss this as allegory, then is it not possible that Jesus requirements of belief can be allegorical as well?



Perhaps you have misplaced your bible. I would find it, since your off hand knowledge of the subject matter seems quite limited. Remember the concept of original sin? That's why Jesus supposedly came, to save us from our sins and the sins of Adam and Eve who cursed them and every subsequent generation. See how easy that is? God sent himself, to save us from his wrath, because of a rule he created! Yes, very simple....

More at issue here, if your parents say "You have ignored us, so now we must eternally torture you." Is the torturer right or wrong? I doubt you'll answer this, but we shall see.

And your beliefs could be wrong as well. The difference is one is based on faith "I want to believe." One is based on empirical observation "Does this make sense with what I have observed so far?" One is an excellent method of gaining information, one is not.



I agree, we should address personal responsibility. But, we should not just stress this point with humans. We must also apply this criteria to your god. To hold one accountable and not the other is intellectually dishonest. Your god is omniscient, he knows all and so he knows the future. He knows everything that will happen, yet he took the actions he has taken, from the creation of angels and Lucifer to the creation of man. He made the flood, destroyed the tower of Babel, Sodom and Ghomorrah, sent Jesus, etc. he created me knowing that his very concept would sound unreasonable to me and that I would reject him, and he would have to force me into hell. YET HE CREATED ME ANYWAY. Personal accountability indeed.

This I highly doubt. Look around the globe, do you think it's coincidence that Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc. just seem to be located near each other geographically? Most people follow the religion of their culture. What if you choose the wrong religion, by investigating all of your different options, and it turns out you made the wrong choice? That is your mistake all right. But it is STILL and evil act for Allah to throw you in hell for all eternity is it not?

In closing, you make several requests for relevance to the OP when charges of moral outrages are brought against your god. These are entirely relevant because if they are true then it means A) Your god is morally bankrupt and not worthy of worship. B) Your god does not exist with the characteristics you have described for him. Either reason is good enough not to worship such a god, and the end result would be (according to most doctrines) that we would go to hell. This is entirely related to the OP>

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Rachel
So if you were homeless and I choose not to invite you into my home even though it was well within my ability to do so I'm punishing you?

If you chose to torture me for all eternity, you would be punishing me.

Interesting take on life. I can't say I agree.

I feel the same way about your views on hell.

Having the ability to do something doesn't make it an obligation.

So if a police officer has the ability to stop a crime, he's not obliged to do so?

In any case, if god is supposed to be all-good, why should he not be obliged to show pity?

We've been given criteria we need to fulfill to enter christian heaven.

People don't agree on what these criteria are.

Don't let me stand in the way of your excuses though. I realise life can be so much easier when you always blame someone else.

Don't let me stand in the way of your fantasies though. I realise life can be so much easier when you have a security blanky of some kind.

1. Murder and unbelief don't carry the same penalty in regards to heaven or hell. Murder is irrelevant.

I've heard that to god, all sins are the same - he sees good people who haven't accepted Jesus in the same light as he sees evil people who haven't accepted Jesus. In other words, he punishes people just as harshly no matter what they have done. This, to me, is the height of injustice.

2. Whether or not "hell" is eternal torture is entirely dependent on interpretation. Some christians consider it to simply be an absense of God and those there make of it what they want. Any torture that comes out of it is their own making, not Gods.

If God made hell, then he's responsible for what hell is like.

3. I don't understand when you say that God punishes some to hell for the actions of others.

Original sin.

Nope, but if as a result of not having a relationship with your parents you put yourself into a situation where torture results is it their fault?

If they create the torture chamber and if they force me into it and if they make me stay there for all eternity, yes, it is their fault.

(hint: Personal responsibility)

(hint : if you create hell, and you maintain hell, then you take responsibility for hell and whatever happens in it)

Belief, or lack of, is dependant on ones interpretation of their experiences and how they view the world. Your experiences tell you that christianity is a load of baloney. Your interpretion of your experiences could be wrong.

Your experiences tell you that christianity is valid. Your interpretation of your experiences could be wrong.

Is God to blame for that? (let me guess: Yes?)

If he could clear up the problems people have with christianity, but he chooses not to do so, he's responsible.

I can't stress personal responsibility enough.

Neither can I. The difference is, I also stress divine responsibility, assuming of course that there is a god.

Whatever your life situation, you are the one who decided not to believe for whatever reasons.

It was a rational decision I made long after becoming a born-again christian. If there is a god, and he decides to torture me for ever because I evaluated the evidence and found it lacking, he is a sadist.

What I was told by various people was simply something to think about on my way. If I'm wrong then I made the mistake, not those around me, not God and not the toothfairy.

If the god of the bible exists, and he chose to ignore me when I had doubts, then he shares part of the responsibility for my atheism.

Relevance to the OP?

You make an analogy of god as a parent, I take it to its logical conclusion.

Context is a great thing. Look the word up.

I take it you are unable to answer the point I raised - namely, that Jesus said "love your enemies" but he feels free to disregard this advice himself? Answering the question is a great thing too - try it some time.

Magus55

So let me get this straight. You spend your whole life, ignoring God, blasphemeing(sp) Him, sinning your whole life, disobeying His laws, living your life for you and focusing on greed and self gratification, insulting/persecuting God's "children", and continually reject and ignore God's offer of salvation - and you think you should just get to cease to exist as your punishment, when its exactly what you want anyway ( since you said you would never want to be in Heaven)? You call that a fair justice system? Would hate to have you in the government. You'd pass a law allowing criminals to decide their own punishment .

You DO NOT make the rules, God does. You do not get to pick and choose what you want, and you certaintly don't get to get away with spending your whole life insulting and rejecting God. You made the choice to reject God and His offer, so you will have to pay the consequences.

Does a criminal get to choose their punishment, or does the justice system/courts do it?


What purpose does life without parole or the death penalty serve? They don't provide rehabilitation either. The people that end up in Hell can't be rehabilitated. They chose their fate, and stuck to it.

Rhaedas

The only crime applicable in this justice system you claim exists is not believing without question. All the above are supposedly forgiven if I suddenly believe in Jesus, no more questioning his existence.

The choice is to blindly believe, or to be skeptical. If thinking is a crime, I'm doomed anyway...

God made 'em that way, and they can't change...so screw 'em.