Infidelettante

Sad way to look at human nature AdamWho. Is this what
logic does to us?

JT

Feather

Likewise for my statement regarding "primitive, unthinking brutes."

Belief in the occult is a symptom of ignorance; not a cause or "co-characteristic." The vast majority of human beings are ignorant and many of them are willfully ignorant (hence unthinking). Occult belief and practice can be traced directly to our "caveman" (hence primitive brute) days.

Monkeybot

Well, I get a kick out of reading Cosmo horoscopes or doing tarot readings, but I do so for entertainment purposes only. I used to believe a little more strongly in astrology, though... I've always liked things like personality tests, and astrology seemed like just another variant on that. For me, it was especially appealing because astrology seemed likea personality test that used much more imaginative and colourful descriptions. I think it's much more appealing to be described as a Scorpion than, say, an Intp or something.

Ultimately, I never believed too seriously -- I don't think I've ever made a life decision, big or small, based on astrology or tarot. I regard it in much the same way as I do religious artwork. I appreciate the beauty of it and kind of think for a moment, "I wish I could be part of that fairy tale. Wouldn't it be magnificent if it were true?" Wouldn't it be neat if there were things like the Greek gods, or if Jesus really loved us unconditionally, or if I was as cool as the description of my sign says I should be?

Ultimately, though, reality will always have a stronger pull than fairy tales. It's neat to think about, but stupid to live your life by. And even stupider to waste your money on...

emotional

The chief reason for occultism, even (and particularly) in our present day, is greed: the feeling that Nature is not enough, that this one life is not enough. They want more.

The unifying strain behind all occult movements is a desire for initiation - a desire for being taught the Divine Mysteries, the Totally Other. There is a feeling that there is some deeper mystery, some deeper truth behind this whole state of affairs, and it must be discovered by occult means. That's why fasts, vigils, trances and other methods of attaining "altered states of consciousness" are so rife in occult circles. Occultists seek various methods of "gaining the sight" (Gerald Gardner's phrase).

Witchcraft, Qabbalah, Tarot, Astrology, Ceremonial Magick - I've had a load of those. If you want a religion - and I do, for I'm a religious person - then best turn atheism into a religion.

Oxymoron

I dunno. I could never figure out why people would want to frolic naked on hillsides

Ensign Steve

Oh, there's always a good reason to frolic naked, no matter what you believe!!

lugotorix

That's quite an occult power you've got there -- the ability to look into the minds of all people involved with occultism and to read their minds. Cool.

Seriously, someone who gets into the occult could just as well have the belief that Nature is enough and that via the occult she can revere and worship it more fully. I've been married for quite some time to a solitary witch who very occasionally does a ritual. She is definitely not motivated by greed. She's a witch because it makes sense to her; that world-view jibes with her experience. Over the years, we've been to several pagan gatherings, where I've met quite a few folks like her. (BTW, I'm not a pagan and am not attracted to "the occult". I am, however, attacted to naked frolicing, especially around a bonfire.)

Actually, methods for attaining altered states of consciousness are rife in most human cultures. It's only in cultures that were warped by puritan cults like Christianity that this basic impulse is denied. Try reading Weil's The Natural Mind for more info.

Oh yeah, Heathen Dawn's website. Too bad he or she has been banned from the forum; I always wanted to hear a further explanation of his/her anti-Buddhist dig in this thread .

lugotorix

Infidelettante

Well I'm not prepared, as you and AdamWho seem to be to
condemn most of our fellow humans as ignorant brutes who
lead boring, painful lives. This is an arrogance I have never
encountered in any Pagan I've ever met. I am puzzled to
discover it in some who profess to be thoughtful people.

You are judging humanity for traits which evolved to unite
us as societies and communities and tribes and to which
we are still connected. I find such thinking to be petty and
small minded. A large part of the neo-pagan movment
is social. We do seek out the like-minded. That is as true
of us as it is of the free-thought community. You post here
to experiance sameness. That is a very human act. To
condemn so vast a body of people because they find
them selves in conditions of poverty and ignorance which
they can not change is a very God-like act.

I will say that I find it telling that you, having never met me
and knowing of me only what you have read in several posts
on this site insist on calling me an ignorant, primitive brute.
I am none of that. I am a Pagan, an occultist, a pantheist,
a polytheist, and an atheist. I can understand how someone
of a logical bent may not find that statment reasonable and I
most willingly admit it is not. That is my point. There are parts
of us that still...still, long for the primitive. Still feels the fire
on naked skin. Still wonders at the full moon. Why do some
try so hard to keep that part hidden? It is natural, use it, enjoy it,
revel in it, celebrate it. No one will think you are ignorant. But
they may think of you as human.

JT

Feather

Well, to be fair I am indulging myself in a fallacy: most of my "evidence" for believing people in general to be primitive, unthinking brutes comes from direct observation. This certainly isn't very fair of me.

:boohoo:

Yes, we all gather here to experience something akin to "sameness." That is, we come here to rant, vent, and share experiences and ideas as they relate to the plethora of superstitious ignorant behaviours and thoughts that influence so very much of the civilisation (such as it is) we all live in.

But to claim I in particular--and "us" in general--are "condeming" anybody is a bit of an exaggeration. Even playing devil's advocate and stipulating that our objections are condemnations, we aren't "condeming" the various people for acting human (by seeking to be with those who they identify most with) so much as their persistent ignorance.

And although poverty is one thing, ignorance is almost always something one can change. It doesn't cost anything to check out a book from the Library.

Well, to be fair I didn't single you out. But if you do believe in the sort of occult supernatural mumbo-jumbo that is the subject of this thread I will be more than happy to. There is a plethora of counter-evidence to the sundry notions of the occult, and most of them can be found in the Library or various other links on this very site. To persist in false belief after confirmed contrary evidence has been presented is just silly. Primitive, even.



Wait, so using the rational bits of my brain necessarily entails that I forgo all the emotional pleasures in life? Isn't that a bit extreme? Why can't I admire the beauty of nature and also understand why it is the way it is? The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I like watching the sunset over the small field with the horses that lies directly across the street from my apartment. I like doing this while standing on my balcony practically naked and puffing on a tobacco pipe. I love the way the sky changes colors as the sun dips toward and finally below the horizon.

When I learned why this (the sunset/light changes) occurs in my Electricity & Magnetism physics class, I didn't appreciate it any less. And now I don't have to assume it was the big fluffy purple elephant washing the dome of the sky in cherry koolaid any more.

Aside from that, even if the rational/emotional understanding of things were mutually exclusive your argument is scarcely convincing: why should I choose the emotional knowledge over the rational?

frostymama

That was one of the last things I gave up. A belief in ghosts, premonitions, and charms was more of a cultural/family heritage thing. My grandfather (agnostic) used to tell us stories about babies in the family being born with the caul/veil, an ancestor of ours who was executed for making an anvil float in the air, and ghost stories that would make your hair stand on end. I actually convinced myself that I had seen ghosts and that I had special "gifts". Up until about 18 months ago I would have argued with anyone who told me it was bullshit.

I guess it was just a way to make myself feel special and connected to whatever culture I came from.