Freethought & Rationalism Archive

wade-w · 05-14-2003, 12:11 AM

Keep it civil, people!

Lobstrosity · 05-14-2003, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vinnie
There is no such thing as magic. If you think otherwise that is your problem.

Hold on a second...I thought you believe that God is not restricted by any physical laws. This is the very definition of "magic." Therefore, we know that God is a magical being simply by definition. We know nothing about any other magical creatures that might exist, but if you're willing to postulate the existence of one (God), then it seems highly illogical to proclaim to know for a fact no others exist. After all, does the Bible not speak of angels and demons? Are there not talking anthropomorphic snakes?

lpetrich · 05-14-2003, 06:45 AM

On this subject, has anyone ever done comparative studies of the efficacy of prayers of different religions?

Some patients' supporters pray to some Catholic saint whose specialties include the patients' diseases, some to some Catholic saint who has some other specialties, some to Asklepios, some to Thoth, some to Surya, etc.

Vinnie · 05-14-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Do your arguments ever have substance, or is name-calling the only defense that you know of?

Anyone with higher than a third grade intelligence level knows that my name-calling is resered specially for you.

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Unproven assertion (and a rather odd assertion for a xian to be making).

Goliath, I am not going to sit here and argue against the existence of magic. Like I said, if you believe in magic that is your problem.

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By the way, you still haven't defined what you mean by "greater" (as used in "greatest being"). Here are my questions in case you missed them:

What is so troubling about God being that which none greater can be thought? God is the ground of being itself. Speaking of God quantitatively isn't even meaningful in my view.

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I thought you believe that God is not restricted by any physical laws.

And you think this because?

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This is the very definition of "magic." Therefore, we know that God is a magical being simply by definition.

God is not a magical being. Harry Potter or Gandalf the Grey are magical beings.

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We know nothing about any other magical creatures that might exist, but if you're willing to postulate the existence of one (God), then it seems highly illogical to proclaim to know for a fact no others exist.

I did not proclaim for a fact that no "lesser god-type entities" exist. I stated that I lack belief in them becuase there isn't sufficient evidence for them.Aside from this the fact also remains that I have no reason to needlessly muliply entities without good evidence.

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After all, does the Bible not speak of angels and demons?

Yes it does, and?

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Are there not talking anthropomorphic snakes?

Snakes don't talk. The story is mythological. Did you see the part where the omniscient deity cursed all snakes because 1) either one snake misbehaved or 2) satan posessed a snake and did some bad stuff. Sounds like stuff I would read in a fairy tale.

Vinnie

gravitybow · 05-14-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Vinnie:
If you all a banana a goobadooba or a blabba its still the same thing. Whether named Ra or Jehova, there can only be one supreme being. Different descriptions of God are not novel by any means so I'm not sure what you are trying to get at?

Still the same thing? Ra, Zeus, goobadooba, etc. are merely different, ordinary ("not novel," in your words) descriptions of God? If you're saying that Ra and all other supreme beings are the same thing as the Biblical Jehovah, then I can see how you readily dismiss objection 1. You're simply substituting Jehovah for Ra. I wasn't aware that gods were so interchangeable.

Now, if Jehovah and Ra aren't the same thing, then you have to control for Ra.
If Ra is real, then you have to control for the supernatural influences Ra can exert. Good luck.
If Ra is not real, then you have to control for the placebo effect that a devout Ra follower may experience.
I believe that is the point of objection 1. Ra belief may affect the outcome, so it needs to be controlled.

Quote:

Vinnie:
Occams razor. Why multiply entities without good reason?

Why use one entity without good reason?

Sci_Fidelity · 05-14-2003, 09:58 AM

Posted by Sabine Grant:

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Testing the spontaneous growth of limbs or recovery from ALS or HIV would not necessarly constitute an evidence in my mind that God is involved or not involved with that recovery process as I do not believe that my will thru prayer has to be honored by God. As a petitioner, I express my desire thru prayer. However, the recipient has the final word.

Translation: No matter how much praying is done, no one will ever grow a new limb, and that is a fact.

You are missing the point. So many christians seem to believe in the power of prayer to heal, yet as soon as the affliction is something with no ambiguity whatsoever, they balk. It would be just as possible for a supreme being to regenerate a limb as cure the common cold, no? So why is it, then, that he has NEVER done it?

Mageth · 05-14-2003, 10:18 AM

What is so troubling about God being that which none greater can be thought? God is the ground of being itself. Speaking of God quantitatively isn't even meaningful in my view.

Am I missing something, or is "greater" not a quantitative assessment?

And is God capable of thinking of a greater being?

Mageth · 05-14-2003, 10:19 AM

As far as prayer studies go, I agree that they are impossible to control, and that, if an effect is detected, it's impossible to determine what "supernatural" or other powers may have been involved. But that's only a problem if one tries to use the studies to illustrate that a particular supernatural power (Jehovah, God, Allah, Ra, magical creatures, etc.) was invoked by the prayer. If the study just sets out to determine the effect of prayer, it's not a problem.

Vinnie · 05-14-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
What is so troubling about God being that which none greater can be thought? God is the ground of being itself. Speaking of God quantitatively isn't even meaningful in my view.

Am I missing something, or is "greater" not a quantitative assessment?

And is God capable of thinking of a greater being?

Not if used qualitatively as an anthropomorphic desription of God.

Vinnie

Mageth · 05-14-2003, 10:46 AM

There is no such thing as magic. If you think otherwise that is your problem.

I, too, find this interesting coming from a theist. What we have here is a Strong Amagicist. I could ask, "Prove it."

Tell me, Vinnie, what would be your response to an atheist who claimed "There is no god"?

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05-14-2003, 12:11 AM	#21
wade-w Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Silver City, New Mexico Posts: 1,872	Keep it civil, people!

05-14-2003, 06:45 AM	#23
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	On this subject, has anyone ever done comparative studies of the efficacy of prayers of different religions? Some patients' supporters pray to some Catholic saint whose specialties include the patients' diseases, some to some Catholic saint who has some other specialties, some to Asklepios, some to Thoth, some to Surya, etc.

05-14-2003, 10:18 AM	#27
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	What is so troubling about God being that which none greater can be thought? God is the ground of being itself. Speaking of God quantitatively isn't even meaningful in my view. Am I missing something, or is "greater" not a quantitative assessment? And is God capable of thinking of a greater being?

05-14-2003, 10:19 AM	#28
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	As far as prayer studies go, I agree that they are impossible to control, and that, if an effect is detected, it's impossible to determine what "supernatural" or other powers may have been involved. But that's only a problem if one tries to use the studies to illustrate that a particular supernatural power (Jehovah, God, Allah, Ra, magical creatures, etc.) was invoked by the prayer. If the study just sets out to determine the effect of prayer, it's not a problem.

05-14-2003, 10:46 AM	#30
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	There is no such thing as magic. If you think otherwise that is your problem. I, too, find this interesting coming from a theist. What we have here is a Strong Amagicist. I could ask, "Prove it." Tell me, Vinnie, what would be your response to an atheist who claimed "There is no god"?

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