The Skipper

I agree with this also, the Islamofascist that want to "reclaim all of Palestine" that is throw all the Jews into the sea, and the Zionist Jews that think they can take more land for "Greater Israel" should duke it out amongst themselves

James T

In speaking to Sauron

(deleted)

From 7 simple points, point 1/ To Understand is Not to Condone. And I'd have to say it was pretty easy to understand.

Maurice

Adopt the Geneva Initiative.
http://www.geneva-initiative.net/

James T

I find it amusing how much of this information is available from jewish sources US Vetoes. I recall a comparison of security council resolutions comparing the Iraq situation with Israel, Israel denies see prior link for the reason for this I think. At least one senior politician agreed the rt Hon Jack Straw.

Loren Pechtel

If the suicide bombers are hitting "legitimate targets" all the time, that sounds like condone to me. He must be defining the Israeli civilians as legitimate targets--and isn't that what terrorism is about, targeting non-combatants?

James T

I think Sauron was talking from the point of view of the people targeting the civilians and their seeing these targets as legitimate. Your equating understanding to condoning is incorrect.

From my own point of view I'd understand an approach from the Palestinians treating Israeli civilians as legitimate targets. The concept of legitimacy in war strikes me as odd in the first place, however the Israeli government are a reflection of the will of the people. If the people wanted a more moderate government, and voted for one over several cycles (which they have had ample opportunity to do) then their government would be taking a more responsible attitude. Hence the Israeli people are directly at the root of the problem.

Secondly, that was a very loose and swift equation of civilian targets and terrorism. BTW posing this as a question to allow a cop-out is weak. Terrorism is one of those very politically weighted words. I defy you to come up with a decent definition. Nevertheless, I wish to progress the discussion now so ...

I consider that it is terrorism if you are attacking principally to (harm|control|steal from) others. I consider that it is not terrorism if you are attacking to remove oppression of your own self in your own home. Your self and home being expanded to include community and country as appropriate.

Under this definition one would have to wonder what the attack on Iraq is.

Ravon

Lauren I am equating missles and bombers and if bombers are,as you say, terrorists, then so are the helicopter pilots that fire missles. Is the civilian on the bus or on the street or in the club any more or less traumatized than the people in the villiage when the missles come screaming in? No the terror and the trauma is the same. I think that you are trying to make the case that the helicopter pilots are firing missles only at palestinian military leaders (combatants). The suicide bomber is striking at who they see as combatants also. Doesn't every Israeli serve in the army. Doesn't Israel have a proud history of civilians fighting to the death. Please be real about the fact that Israel is a powerful, well armed warrior state ruled by religious zealots quite prepared to asassinate peace seeking leaders. That did hapen did it not? They are every bit as war like as the muslim and christian fundies and they (all three) threaten the peace of the world. As much as you and others try to rationalize Israels aggression it is real - I know - I witnessed it first hand. :banghead:

rlogan

Hi Ravon.

You aren't going to make any headway here.

"Terrorism" is whatever Loren is opposed to.

State terror was actually my introduction to the term in college. The bootsteps in the hall in the middle of the night. The purges. Police state brutality.

Yes, the distinction clung to by by the Zionists is one of their own manufacture. Deny arms to the Palestinians. Arm yourself to the teeth with money and weapons from the U.S.

Since the other side can't defeat tanks with rocks they do what is always done in asymmetric war: target what they can.

Then you can shriek about "illegitimate" targets even though you are killing more of the same non-combatents yourself.

War is peace. Rocks are better than tanks.

Epictetus

Sauron, Sauron, Sauron...again with the "I hate Zionists" stuff and Yahoo for the arab terrorists. Tsk, tsk. The problem with the middle east situation is that there are far too many people with the Sauron-mentality instead of viewing their antagonists as human beings.

James T

An effect I have seen often, the worst examples with adults. It doesn't matter who was right first but at some point someone steps over some invisible line of reasonability and they become the bad guy.

This is one of those really clear cases where the Israelis, as a people, are guilty of doing the very things which they suffered historically. They are long long long past being able to justify their actions based on the suffering of their forebears. Consider the world if we all acted like this.

If Israel really wanted it all to stop. It would.