diana

Because everything has to come from something. How do you figure it's possible that ANYTHING can make itself? And you think I'm delusional. Listen to yourself, man.

I reiterate, just because you don't understand why The Lord made us this way does not in any way mean that we came from monkeys. Perhaps we lose our sight as we age so that, as we near Death's door, we will look inward.

Wondrous, isn't it? You give so many beautiful examples of the work of Our Creator. How can you not see what's right in front of your eyes?

He can do whatsoever he wishes. Without death, we could never be with Him in Heaven. And why, with all the suffering on earth, would you want your stay in this world to be longer? Surely your lifespan is sufficient time to prove yourself to Him. The shortness of your life is only due to His mercy.

I have already addressed how death is part of His plan.

The ravages of time remind you of your own mortality. They give you a chance to change and serve Him before it's too late.

He has shown you all you need to know, in His Word. Perhaps He has already disclosed too much information to you, because you are grown haunty and arrogant, believing you understand more than Him.

In His Deathgrip,

d

Synaesthesia

We will all die, every damn last one of us. It's a natural part of the blind process of genetic selection; it proceeds without regards for the feelings of the individual.

However, I disagree that Death is the negation of ID. It is perfectly concievable that an intelligent designer would want, (or would be unable to avoid) death.

case

Explain how an entity that is able to design the entire universe, with everything in it, including all physical laws, would not be able to avoid death.

rainbow walking

Diana: Because everything has to come from something.

Rw: And why does that something always just default to an incomprehensible concept of a creator being when no evidence exists to justify the claim?

Diana: How do you figure it's possible that ANYTHING can make itself?

Rw: It’s not difficult at all to figure Diana. Put six people on an island with limited resources and watch as specific attributes manifested by specific individuals arise to confer upon that individual the dominant role in the group. It may be physical prowess or mental capacity or ambassadorial skills, but something will always create a hierarchy in the group based on the will to survive. It’s called natural selection and determines survival of the fittest. If the group, as a whole, wills to survive they will also learn that cooperation enables survival more efficiently in a situation of limited resources. It’s the guiding force inherent in the food chain and it is observable, testable, verifiable and falsifiable. In other words it is a FACT of reality. Taking this back to the human anatomy we can see a direct correlation in the cooperation between the optical nerves and the rest of the human body such that postulating evolution is no longer delusional or such a far fetched explanation, regardless of how much we emotionally wish it weren’t true. As organisms were forced to compete with other organisms for survival genetic selection favored those subtle changes in physical anatomy that gave the species an edge in the quest for survival and replication. Because our environment is one of conflict and change it only stands to reason that every species dependent upon that environment will reflect those conflicts and changes if that species can survive them.

Diana: And you think I'm delusional. Listen to yourself, man.

Rw: I don’t recall making such an accusation, however, I will say that a person who clings to a conflicting un-supportable explanation in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary has some motives for doing so. In your case I will opine that you have become emotionally dependent upon the godunnit explanation for reasons of your own. You want it to be true so it just has to be.

Diana: I reiterate, just because you don't understand why The Lord made us this way does not in any way mean that we came from monkeys.

Rw: No one said we came from monkeys Diana. We share a common ancestor with monkeys and many other mammals. Arrogance makes it difficult for us to visualize ourselves on a plain with other species that share our planet. I find no evidence to suggest there is a Lord responsible for our physiologies and all the wishing and wanting it to be so by all the people on this planet in this generation won’t make it so. Understanding is a derivative of fact and truth. Lack of understanding means there are some facts or truths missing. The lack of understanding inherent in your position begins with the FACT that the very term “god” conveys no useful comprehensible information apropos to the continued survival of the human species. Just because you’ve filled in the blanks, smoothed over the inconsistencies and gloss right by the contradictions with your “mysterious ways” justification doesn’t privilege your wishes with any special explanatory power that humans can derive any physical benefit from. Emotional benefit…maybe, under special circumstances, but physical benefits are derived from factual analysis of our reality, not from wishing and believing in spite of our realities.

Diana: Perhaps we lose our sight as we age so that, as we near Death's door, we will look inward.

Rw: And why must we wait until we near death to conduct a self examination? The fact is, from an emotional standpoint, we are constantly conducting introspection during and after every brush with our conflicting and changing environment. It’s called maturing.

Diana: Wondrous, isn't it?

Rw: Not overwhelmingly so, no. Consistent to our environment it is magnificent in scope and beauty.

Diana: You give so many beautiful examples of the work of Our Creator.

Rw: Then you concede that “nature” is your creator?

Diana: How can you not see what's right in front of your eyes?

Rw: Why must I attribute what I see to be the handiwork of an unverifiable creator? Contrary to your popular book’s claims, the evidence IS NOT in the creation. RE-INTERPRETATION of the evidence, provided by the natural sciences, doesn’t qualify as evidence. Pre-empting the evidence provided by the natural sciences and re-interpreting it to be evidence for a creator being, without so much as a single justifiable shred of evidence that such a being exists, is nothing more than an emotionally driven wish created by tradition and cultural norms. It doesn’t stand on equal footing or over-ride the explanations provided by natural methods. It has no explanatory power of its own but depends on the natural sciences to fill in the blanks. It forces you to concede that it is a mystery.

Diana: He can do whatsoever he wishes.

Rw: Don’t you mean whatever you wishes?

Diana: Without death, we could never be with Him in Heaven.

Rw: Doesn’t that strike you as odd? A being who can do whatever he wishes who wishes you to suffer and die to be with him? What’s wrong with the earth? Why doesn't he just join you here on earth? If I had my preferences I’d prefer to stay right here. As you confess, it is truly a wondrous place. Any such description of this heaven derived from your book of wishes only leads me to reject it as a place I’d even want to visit. According to Revelation 12:7 there is going to be a terrible war there someday. A war from which I would have no power to escape or prevent. So it can’t possibly be this blissful place of peace and harmony that you so wish it to be.

Diana: And why, with all the suffering on earth, would you want your stay in this world to be longer?

Rw: So that I can do more to alleviate all this suffering. Would a righteous creator really want you to view heaven as a place to evade your responsibilities here? Isn’t this counter-productive to the basic tenets of christianity

Diana: Surely your lifespan is sufficient time to prove yourself to Him.

Rw: What exactly am I expected to prove? I thought he was omniscient, knows everything? Is there something I can do to prove myself, (whatever that means) that falls outside his knowledge base? Surely he already knows my “self” anyway so what is there to prove? That his knowledge is perfect? Then he doesn’t know with certainty and must await my proof? Contradiction and inconsistencies through and through.

Diana: The shortness of your life is only due to His mercy.

Rw: That doesn’t sound very merciful to me Diana. I happen to love and enjoy my life and couldn’t possibly view its shortness as an act of anything but cruelty.

Diana: I have already addressed how death is part of His plan.

Rw: Unfortunately, the address isn’t in my registry. It doesn’t compute as anything meaningful or workable. It rests on the conclusion that this earth and world are horrible places that we should long to escape. It perpetuates a mindset that humans are powerless to affect their environment in positive ways. Reality and human history tell a different story.

Diana: The ravages of time remind you of your own mortality. They give you a chance to change and serve Him before it's too late.

Rw: And will this undefined service magically extend my life here? Why does an omnipotent being need servants?

Diana: He has shown you all you need to know, in His Word.

Rw: Only in your emotionally driven inconsistently interpreted imagination. I’ve been through your bible from cover to cover more times than you could imagine. I tried your way. I entered your make believe world and made believe with the best of them. I was, and still am, a licensed minister in good standing. I could return to the ministry tomorrow and milk the flock for the rest of my days on this planet. I spent many, many years studying his word. What I have discovered is that “all I need to know” basically means “don’t ask and don’t expect answers when you do”. If I’m a product of this creator being then he created me with an insatiable need to know. All I need to know isn’t contained in your bible Diana, sorry. It just isn’t there. Unless I’m willing to limit my need to know, which I’m not.

Diana: Perhaps He has already disclosed too much information to you, because you are grown haunty and arrogant, believing you understand more than Him.

Rw: Then, in order to display the proper humility I must submit to a dumbing down process that will cripple the mind you allege he created. This hardly seems consistent to Isaiah 1:18.

Or I must re-interpret all I already know to be a product of this beings creativeness. I have always been willing to reason with the Lord, but he has yet to show up for the reasoning to ensue. What else is there for a reasonable mind to conclude except there is no Lord with whom to reason.

Diana: In His Deathgrip,

Rw: No doubt.

rainbow walking

rw: Then you would have to drop off the "intelligent" aspect of this designer. I can concieve of a human anatomy capable of withstanding the natural forces of its environment, and so can many others actively involved in defining the debilitating effects of that environment to circumvent them. I can concieve a human anatomy that will continue to survive until it is destroyed by accident or design. Does that make me more intelligent than this alleged designer? I can concieve a species, designed to live until either accidental or intentional death, quickly populating this planet and being forced to cooperate to enble their survival by branching out into the stars in search of other similar environments and by using intellegent means to plan parenthood. I can concieve tremendously long lifespans of very intelligent people affording them much more time to benefit the rest of us with their intelligence. I can concieve an ecology that derives its sustenance from non-confrontational sources like plants derive theirs from the sun.

If I can concieve these things, then why couldn't a truly intelligent designer concieve and instantiate them?

What possible motive would an intelligent designer have for designing such short lifespans into its most prolific creatures?

HelenM

Hi rw

Her Bible, huh?

Have you read Diana's profile?

love
Helen

rainbow walking

rw: Ahahahah...o'kay. I can see that humor and sarcasm are also among her belated interests. I have been taken for a ride...yes? O'kay Diana, girlfriend, be forwarned. I don't get even I get ahead



So how are things with you Helen? And thanx for the que. This might have gone on for centuries. Although Diana might be a little miffed at you for spoiling her fun.

Queen of Swords

I thought the phrase "In His Deathgrip" gave it all away, even if the smiley-faces didn't.

diana

RW,

I thought you knew who I was the whole time. You don't use those annoying smileys every time you post, do you? There's still far too much Xn in you, brother.

All the same, RW. It was fun, huh? It's an interesting exercise for me to play Xn. How'd I do?

Dammit, Helen. I was having such a good time. I think RW was, too. But this changes everything. We can't go on like this. It...just wouldn't be the same.

Thanks for getting the "In His Deathgrip" joke, Queen.

d

[ June 15, 2002: Message edited by: diana ]</p>

diana

There was also Jobar's early comment that he was considering moving this thread to the Humor Forum.

I understand, though, RW...I was there once, where you are now. I don't mean this to sound superior in any way--far from it. I just know how intensely passionate and angry and ready to argue with anyone about anything religious I was when I finally realized that it just didn't logically click together and I discarded it. I would fight at the drop of a hat, as they say, and drop the hat myself.

In that period, I doubt I'd have paid much attention to who I was talking to, so intent was I on making my argument.

I didn't mean to take you for a ride. It wasn't until you made the comment that Helen homed in on that I thought you might actually be taking me seriously--which is why I hadn't responded.

Sorry I had you on. Kinda.

d
(btw...welcome to Heathendom.)