Alter

Okay, here's my challenge to you:

First, forget history for a moment. Don't waste breath arguing whose claim to what is how many years old, or anything like that.

Okay, now, put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli government. If your anti-Israel sentiment has to do with your dislike of Jews, change the name. Picture a little country of Sauronites, or WinSmithies, or whatever.

Your country mostly comprises a small ethnic minority of people like you, within mostly indefensible borders. (Your people are still persecuted in many places throughout the world, and there have been attempts in the past to annihilate you by large governments.) You occupy the territory adjacent to your country, filled with a people who have many who hate you and seek your destruction. Your capital includes some occupied territory.

If you abandon the occupied territory, the new government there is unlikely to be strong enough to prevent terrorist attacks on your country, and may actually support such attacks. Until now, the attacks have been mostly small, but if the new govt in the occupied territory is given full leeway at its borders, it is very likely that they will conspire with some of their 500 million strong ethnic group to bring in some sort of WMD, and fire it the mere miles into your country.

However, if you continue to occupy the territory and go after the terrorists, you will create harsh enough conditions to encourage more terrorists.

If you try a "light" occupation, the terrorist groups inside will have enough freedom to work on attacks, and although recruitment will be harder, attacks will be easier.

You also have hard liners in your own country who resist any efforts to pull back, preventing you from either pulling back inside previous armisitice lines (which would likely include tearing up towns on your side), or leaving the country altogether. They have strong historical attachments to the land and to the religious sites, and they will not budge.

Your worries going forward are that the tech levels will increase such as to make it impossible for you to prevent all possible WMD attacks maybe 20 years down the line. You know that no matter what you do, there will still be a core group seeking your destruction, and much money and governmental support from their ethnic brethren outside.

What would YOU do?

Sphincterboy

1) Stop encouraging the radical members of my people to move into the occupied territories, since that seems to a major source of all that animosity.

2) Request a UN peacekeaping force to administer the territories while I

3) Withdraw my own military forces to my internationally recognized legitimate boundry

4) Defend that boundry with any and all of the considerable means I have.

Quite simple really. Not going to happen, though, since 'Eretz Yisrael' is alive and well in the minds of those who make up my political support structure, and following the course of action described above is political suicide.

Rob0t X

quite possibly the same thing the israelis are doing now.

however it just so happens i am on the other side of the fence.

say your a palestinian, and you see your father killed by an israeli missile. you see you children shot by snipers. you see your home destroyed. you see the systematic destruction and removal of your entire people by the state of israel.

what would you do?

---------------------------

so i guess we come down to the conflict will never end, at least not untill all the palestinians are removed, or the israelis are removed.

i hope the israelis are removed.

Alter

I totally understand the Palestinian cult of martyrdom, and why people follow it. That doesn't mean I agree with it, though. Targeting children is beyond the pale.


I think if things can boil down, and we can simultaneously TWO non-stubborn leaders, there is a chance. With Barak, there was a chance, but Arafat passed. Abbas and Sharon seem to be making progress, although Abbas is an unknown, and Sharon is kind of stubborn. Maybe Sharon can lay the groundwork, and a liberal can seal the deal.

Yeah! Dump the only democracy in the middle east!

Alter

(1) is tough, they seem to be going that direction somewhat, though.

(2) Barak proposed that for East Jerusalem. Israel would need assurances that Palestine remains demilitarized, is the UN powerful enough to do that?

(3) The wall is pretty close to that. However, locking in a few major settlements will probably eventually be accepted. They'll have to dump ridiculous ones like Hebron, though.

(4) I think you're on board for the wall of separation!

The hardest parts of the deal are getting the expansionists in Israel to give up, and getting the Palestinian leadership enough control to prevent the radicals within their midst from attacking.

ZeusTKP

I hope that people on both sides who want a never-ending conflict are "removed".

Alter

As an aside:

Although I think that all people are "created" equal, I do NOT think that all cultures are equal. For example, I do not think the racist, sexist, homophobic culture of the US south should be allowed to be perpetuated without eliminating such elements.

Along those lines, I do not support openly racist, religion-mandating cultures like Wahhabiism. And I do not support cultures of martyrdom where suicide is encouraged, and bombers of children in strollers are treated as heroes.

Compare that to the Israeli culture. Minorities within are allowed full rights (there are asome exceptions, but these are being eroded by the courts). The country has democratically elected representatives and leaders. Nobody is arrested for their political beliefs. People are free to leave the country if they so choose. Dissenters are argued with, not beaten to death and dragged through the streets. This stands in sharp contrast to the Arab governments and cultures.

The Palestinian culture is SICK, and needs help. Israel bears a large part of the responsibility for creating this sickness, but it is up to the Palestinians to heal themselves.

They can move forward peacefully, build a nation, and then peacefully sue for reparations for land lost. They will likely win.

Or they can follow the cycle of never-ending violence and occupation.

The latest info on Sharon and Abbas is encouraging.

Alter

A *MUCH* better answer.

linox

i agree with all my heart.
as long people only lay blame on only one side, the war will never end.

Anglican

Alter it's a total strawman though, as few would agree with your assesemnt of the situation.

Also you accuse the Palestinains of targetting children, yet there is only a handful of cases were this could of even of claimed to happen (basically I know of only one such case where there was claim of delibarte targetting) during the present intifada wheret this has happened yet you ignore the fact there has been numerous cass of the Isreali army targeting Palestian children and infact there is a Jewish terrorist group ("Avenge the Children") dedictaed purely to attacking Palestinian children which has been responsible for the bombing and attempted bombing of several Palestinian schools during the present intifada.