ashibaka

That's an interesting point. The Bill of Rights tells us what we can do (have a fair trial, create a petition, speak out against the government); the Bible tells us what we cannot do (be gay, eat shrimp, commit adultery). Obviously, someone's been confusing the two ideas.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: ashibaka ]</p>

MrDarwin

Eldy, you haven't answered my question. What is the biblical basis for the Bill of Rights? Can you point to any right that is enumerated there, and tell us how you know that right comes from God?

Do you believe that men have a right to marry more than one wife?

Do you believe that parents have a right to have their disobedient sons stoned to death?

Do you believe that a gay man has a right to be protected from a mob that wants to stone him to death?

Why or why not?

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

PopeInTheWoods

And your evidence for this is ...? The question was, "Where in the xian bible are our rights enumerated?"
My rights come from the Constitution of the USA, which derived them from "We the People....". You know, government with the consent of the governed and all that.
Always? I think the "godless pagan" leaders of ancient Greece and Rome in their heydays would argue. Also, many "god-fearing" leaders have performed their share of slaughter. Remember the various crusades, inquisitions, jihads, etc.?
</strong>
Asked and answered, counselor. Asserting things without evidence multiple times does not make them any less false.
Unfortunately, that has been the "view of rights" of many xians throughout history.

Andy

edited for spelling and grammar

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: PopeInTheWoods ]</p>

Mageth

Personally, as far as the source of rights, you can take your god and I'll take our Constitution. Without the Constitution, and the diligent who defend it, none of us would be safe from the dominant superstition, which historically, and in the present, quite often kill dissenting citizens in the name of some "greater god."

queue

Originally posted by ashibaka:
When I read the Bill of Rights I see that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th, and 10th amendments tell the government what it cannot do. The 6th and 7th amendments are telling the government what it must do in certain circumstances. I do not see it telling us what we can do.

hezekiah jones

Please read the Constitution and get back to us when you come to grips with reality.

They've tried it before. And it was done under the Christian view of "rights," not the "atheistic" view.

Good for you. We're all thrilled.

Toto

This is wrong, unless you concept of "God" is the Universe. The founders of this country thought that rights were "inalienable" - they are part of you from birth. Having rights is the default position, with no need for someone to bestow anything.

All governments kill their own citizens in the name of a greater good. (That's the definition of government - the legitimate use of violence.) GW Bush has overseen the execution of quite a few.

Most European countries with fine living conditions and political freedom are headed by secularists, while some of the worst hell-holes on earth now are headed by believers (as were some of the worst in history). Rwanda is a largely Christian nation. Pat Robertson has given his blessings to Liberia. Most South American dictators were/are Catholics. The Taliban were not atheists.

You repeat yourself. See my answer above. Throughout most of their history, Christians did try to destroy all infidels in the name of God, until they were civilized by the Enlightenment.

Somehow I feel no need for Christ to set me free. I look at his followers, and they do not have a good track record on political freedom for the 2000 or so years that they have been around.

Let me guess. You are over 50 and you grew up in the American South. You have a very warped view of history.

ashibaka

Yeah, but the government isn't the same idea as "everyone". ^^; Perhaps I've jumped to conclusions, though.

RobertE

Interesting. I was unaware of the fact that the gods had any influence at all on matters as lowly as zoning commission meetings, much less political documents as great as the US Constitution.

Rights come from the gods my butt.

Spazmatic

Here's my opinions, subject by subject (as it seems this thread has fanned out quite suddenly).

Q.1) Do the rights of American citizens come from God?
A.1) Arguable. The Constitution doesn't state our rights come from God, but nor does it state where our rights really come from (besides itself). The Bill of Rights obviously doesn't discuss it. So, then, where is the idea that our rights come from God seen? The Declaration of Independence, and many texts written by the founding fathers (remember, the "wall" idea came from the Danbury letter, so these writings do have some importance). This is where the conflict is... I really prefer to think we get our rights from the fact that there was a unanimous vote for them way back in the day, but, hey, might just be me...

Q.2) Do all rights come from God?
A.2) Surely polytheists and atheists would disagree. But, most importantly, this is a helluva complicated question debated by philosophers throughout history. Think about Hobbes, for example. In the end, I don't think we can come to a certain answer to this question. I would say that neither side should be too quick to dismiss the other, though.

Q.3) Do all practical rights derive from God, aka are godless nations horrible, evil abominations?
A.3) Hell no. If you speak of monotheist nations, you forget that the Roman empire was the most religiously tolerant empire of all time. During the governing of the early emperors and the Five Good Emperors, there was a nearly unbespeakable amount of joy. True, later emperors (and some earlier) would go out and slaughter Christians, but besides that, there was nothing, and it was never as bad as what Christians did to pagans post-Constantine. And then there's the fact that there are plenty of horrible monotheist leaders. Do we forget our friend Hitler? The fact is, good atheists haven't tried to seize power. The only ones who regularly do are communists, and I would assert it's the communist part that causes the brutality.

So, in summary, I didn't really say much except open your eyes and look around. Nothing is ever black and white.