Freethought & Rationalism Archive

yguy · 05-10-2003, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by openeyes
In addition, IMO, bringing a child into the world that you're woefully underprepared to nurture properly and understandably reluctant to give up is a larger moral wrong than having an abortion of a non-viable fetus.

Living fetuses in utero ARE in the world.

Dr Rick · 05-10-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by long winded fool
I'm making an assumption than killing a human being is wrong because all human beings have the right to life....Since my opinion appears to be shared by the majority and is reflected in the laws of this country, mine ought to be assumed when discussing whether or not abortion should be a legal activity in this country.

...is not just all wrong, it's also more than just a bit "ironic" in the face of what lwf has previously posted:

Quote:

And if the authority comes from majority rule, then there is nothing wrong with slavery as long as the majority decide it is okay. Since slavery is wrong regardless of what the majority says, then it must be because all humans have certain inalienable rights, and not because our neighbors say so.

It's one thing to post a thoughtful argument and quite another to just spew whatever pops into one's head.

Rick

long winded fool · 05-10-2003, 12:01 PM

LOL. So arguing about whether a legal thing is logical refutes the assumption that "might makes right" is wrong? Did you honestly take that away from my posts, or is this just another example of you taking things I say out of context, assembling them into a fallacy, and then declaring the argument refuted? For someone who constantly labels arguments refuting his beliefs as strawmen, you are obviously unaware of what a strawman argument is.

I bet it's nice to be able to label an entire post "all wrong" without actually having to think about it.

KitKit · 05-10-2003, 12:10 PM

if you are trying change each other's minds i think you are wasting your time and causing way more stress in your life than is necessary. take a deep breath. stress is bad for you.

Dr Rick · 05-10-2003, 12:43 PM

I have no intention of educating lwf, but my PMs from others express interest and appreciation for the rational deconstruction of some of the most inane arguments against abortion ever posted here. lwf has keyboard skills and conflats his arguments with fallacies of complex questions, false premises, equivocation, and strawmen, often "hiding" the fallacy in his wordy rhetoric. I often have to cut and paste portions of his long posts to make them more clear, but I don 't take them out of context; there's no reason to.

Even the pro-lifers are learning from the refutations....

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Rick
lwf aserts that human beings (born with dignity and human rights) neither includes nor excludes fetuses, which it may. If a statement about human beings may be made that does not include fetuses, then a statement about the human family may also be made that does not include fetuses. It doesn't have to exclude them, but it may. That contradicts the assertion that "they can only be logically included."

Quote:

Originally posted by yguy
OK, in strictly logical terms I don't have a problem with this. The question then becomes whether it is more reasonable to include fetuses as members of the human family or not...

yguy is still very much pro-life, but at least he sees the irrationality of lwf's arguments, and isn't using them. There are some good pro-life arguments to be made; we're just not seeing any of them here.

As far as stress goes, this is no more difficult for me than handing lwf a hammer and watching him strike himself repeatedly...

Thanks for the concern, though,

Quote:

Originally posted by long winded fool
I bet it's nice to be able to label an entire post "all wrong" without actually having to think about it.

It would be much nicer if you would post something worth thinking about.

Oh, and lwf; put the hammer down for a moment and go look at the other abortion thread; my quote of you from it is verbatim.

Rick

Salmon of Doubt · 05-10-2003, 01:31 PM

I just want to congratulate everyone who's arguing in favour of pro-choice here. I have a lot of problems articulating my arguments, and I'm glad someone is doing it for me

If I had a child right now it would ruin my life, and probably the child's life too, as I wouldn't be able to provide for it or support it. I don't sob over every egg that is shed with a period, or women having a miscarriage when they don't even know they are pregnant, and removing a zygote is not my idea of murder. If anti-abortionists think that that zygote is so precious, why don't they work harder on artificial wombs, and grow all those precious zygotes themselves and raise them as children? It would cause emotional distress to the mothers, of course, but as they don't care about that, it's almost irrelvant.

Anti-abortionists would never want someone to take away your right to choose what happens to their life (I know I wouldn't), and so shouldn't preach it to other people. I feel SO glad people in the UK don't seem to have such issues with taking away women's rights to choose what happens to their own bodies, and are sensible about the whole abortion thing.

yguy · 05-10-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Salmon of Doubt
I don't sob over every egg that is shed with a period, or women having a miscarriage when they don't even know they are pregnant, and removing a zygote is not my idea of murder. If anti-abortionists think that that zygote is so precious, why don't they work harder on artificial wombs, and grow all those precious zygotes themselves and raise them as children?

Since these women aren't doing anything to cause it, it's not murder. And if God is content to let those zygotes perish, so am I.

Salmon of Doubt · 05-10-2003, 02:24 PM

Well then if God doesn't intervene and stop the abortion, surely he's ok with those zygotes dying as well then?

yguy · 05-10-2003, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Salmon of Doubt
Well then if God doesn't intervene and stop the abortion, surely he's ok with those zygotes dying as well then?

Can you rephrase this? I don't see what you're getting at.

Dominus Paradoxum · 05-10-2003, 03:48 PM

"You don't know what the hell you're talking about."

Well, if you think that a zygote can be conscious, that's your buisness, but you have absolutely nothing to base that on, and every neuroscientist working today would take my position. The more complex somethings brain is the more intellegent it is, if certain centers in the brain are damaged, intellegence is affected. If you get knocked on the head, you lose consciousness for a while. You know, there are split brain patients whose hemispheres can no longer communicate with each other, and it is quite possible for one half to know something that the the other does not. What happens to the "soul" of such a person, yguy? What if we took each half of the brain and were able to transplant it successfully into a new body? What would happen to the soul in such a case? Even if consciousness is somehow nonphysical, it is scientifically demonstrable to be strongly supervenient on proper brain function. You can't just ignore that.

"Not at all. "Inalienable rights" are those which cannot be taken away by man. God gives life, and He can take it away. We can do neither. "

Notice the question being begged here? Tell me, could God revoke the humanity of blacks if he so chose?

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05-10-2003, 12:01 PM	#143
long winded fool Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USA Posts: 2,113	LOL. So arguing about whether a legal thing is logical refutes the assumption that "might makes right" is wrong? Did you honestly take that away from my posts, or is this just another example of you taking things I say out of context, assembling them into a fallacy, and then declaring the argument refuted? For someone who constantly labels arguments refuting his beliefs as strawmen, you are obviously unaware of what a strawman argument is. I bet it's nice to be able to label an entire post "all wrong" without actually having to think about it.

05-10-2003, 12:10 PM	#144
KitKit Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: earth Posts: 142	if you are trying change each other's minds i think you are wasting your time and causing way more stress in your life than is necessary. take a deep breath. stress is bad for you.

05-10-2003, 01:31 PM	#146
Salmon of Doubt Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 150	I just want to congratulate everyone who's arguing in favour of pro-choice here. I have a lot of problems articulating my arguments, and I'm glad someone is doing it for me If I had a child right now it would ruin my life, and probably the child's life too, as I wouldn't be able to provide for it or support it. I don't sob over every egg that is shed with a period, or women having a miscarriage when they don't even know they are pregnant, and removing a zygote is not my idea of murder. If anti-abortionists think that that zygote is so precious, why don't they work harder on artificial wombs, and grow all those precious zygotes themselves and raise them as children? It would cause emotional distress to the mothers, of course, but as they don't care about that, it's almost irrelvant. Anti-abortionists would never want someone to take away your right to choose what happens to their life (I know I wouldn't), and so shouldn't preach it to other people. I feel SO glad people in the UK don't seem to have such issues with taking away women's rights to choose what happens to their own bodies, and are sensible about the whole abortion thing.

05-10-2003, 02:24 PM	#148
Salmon of Doubt Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: UK Posts: 150	Well then if God doesn't intervene and stop the abortion, surely he's ok with those zygotes dying as well then?

05-10-2003, 03:48 PM	#150
Dominus Paradoxum Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: California Posts: 1,000	"You don't know what the hell you're talking about." Well, if you think that a zygote can be conscious, that's your buisness, but you have absolutely nothing to base that on, and every neuroscientist working today would take my position. The more complex somethings brain is the more intellegent it is, if certain centers in the brain are damaged, intellegence is affected. If you get knocked on the head, you lose consciousness for a while. You know, there are split brain patients whose hemispheres can no longer communicate with each other, and it is quite possible for one half to know something that the the other does not. What happens to the "soul" of such a person, yguy? What if we took each half of the brain and were able to transplant it successfully into a new body? What would happen to the soul in such a case? Even if consciousness is somehow nonphysical, it is scientifically demonstrable to be strongly supervenient on proper brain function. You can't just ignore that. "Not at all. "Inalienable rights" are those which cannot be taken away by man. God gives life, and He can take it away. We can do neither. " Notice the question being begged here? Tell me, could God revoke the humanity of blacks if he so chose?

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