Keith

The bible is objectively true. A great many of its claims can be (and have been) verified. The fact that we humans reject the Truth because we prefer a lie is our fault, not God's. It's not as though God has failed to provide the Truth to us. You, and all of humanity know God on some level. God has made his existence, his power, his glory clear to us in unmistakable ways. The bible says, of unbelievers, that they are "without excuse." You choose not to believe because you don't WANT to believe. I was the same way. I believe now, because God caused me to want the Truth.

Keith

Keith

No, I'm not saying it's reasonable to assume that the sun will rise tomorrow because it always has in the past.

I agree with your conclusion (the sun will rise tomorrow) but I'm rejecting your reasoning for that conclusion. I don't agree with you that the sun will rise tomorrow because it has risen every day in the past.

I have confidence (faith) that the sun will rise tomorrow because of God's own nature. God has shown that he is loving, creative, purposeful, and that he keeps his promises. For atheists, the conclusion is reached simply by assuming the conclusion, which of course is question-begging.

Keith

Keith

Not at all. I don't deny that my main motivation is to expose various inconsistencies inherent in atheistic beliefs, but I asked the OP question because I honestly wanted to hear your answers. I still do, and I appreciate this discussion with all of you. I hope that if I'm sounding too sure of myself you won't think I'm being proud, arrogant, or condescending. That is not my intention. So far, I've been extremely impressed at the politeness and overall QUALITY of all of the responses on this thread. For this, I am thankful to all of you.

Keith

Shadowy Man

Hmm... I have confidence (trust) that the sun will rise tomorrow because of a detailed model of the universe that humanity has built up over thousands of years that has proven to me repeatably, reliably and convincingly to be an accurate representation of what's really going on. According to this model, the sun will rise tomorrow.

I don't think I've assumed the conclusion.

Keith

On the surface, this observation is quite true. At the core, it is only incidentally true. God merely used the particular Jews and the collection of bishops to accomplish his purposes.

Keith

Keith

You have. You are reasoning that theories built upon repetitive results showing uniformly consistent outcomes are going to continue to hold up (remain constant) into the future. This isn't answering why we should believe that the future will resemble the past, it is just begging the question. It is trying to argue for continued uniformity based upon past uniformity. On the atheistic assumption, there is no reason to suppose that the future must resemble the past.

Keith

Shadowy Man

This is incorrect. I just stated the reasons why I suppose that the future resembles the past. And these reasons are highly valid. Are you that ignorant of the scientific process that has produced the world in which you live?

The conclusion that the future resembles the past is a conclusion of the models, not an assumption.

Besides, on the theistic assumption, there is no reason to suppose that the future must resemble the past. In fact, due to the capricious nature of the god described in the Bible, there's less reason to expect the future to resemble the past.

Philosoft

Presumably, what you mean by "verified" is, "shown to be in accord with reality." At the risk getting this thread shipped off to BC&A, do any of those "verfied claims" have anything to do with the actual existence of God or the ressurection of Jesus or the Noachian flood? I'm well aware that archaeology has confirmed the existences of some of the more mundane locales and peoples described therein, but I am unaware of any proof of any Biblical miracle or supernatural activity of any kind.

I "prefer a lie"? Is it your position that I am somehow comforted by the cold, mechanistic processes of evolution and abiogenesis?

Oh, wait, I know. I'm one of those who actively rejects any ultimate authority because it undermines my sense of self-determination. I was a problem child. My parents couldn't handle me. I got it.

It is, actually. God knows exactly what it would take to convince me of the Truth and he has consistently failed to provide sufficient evidence.

The funny thing is, I wouldn't hold God to a terribly high standard. Maybe I'm hungry for a burrito and he shows up and miracles a burrito into existence without my having asked for it. Is that really asking too much? Apparently.

Hmm. Argument from "Convincing yourself you're right and everyone else is heavily deluded"?

Um, no. They're quite mistakable. A billion-something Hindus have apparently made a similar mistake as I have.

You know, you might do better to refrain from claiming that things we actually see happening aren't happening.
So it is incumbent upon God to make me "want the Truth"? And how is it my fault that God hasn't done this for me?

John Page

You're straying into your own subjective opinion again, Keith. Also, this interpretation admits that Islam is equally valid. Under Islam you are an instrument of evil. Given conflicts (metaphorically) between the Islamic faith and Christianity, hard to tell the true faith (such a thing being a fiction for me).

May your god (please) go with you, John

Sue Sponte

With all respect, this is nonsense. The sun rises, so you PRESUME that the sun rising is "of God's own nature." If the sun stopped rising, then you'd simply change "God's nature" to reflect this fact.

As I've asked repeatedly, what about the bible or God indicates that the sun will rise tomorrow? Until you explain why you believe that your theistic beliefs provide some advantage in understanding such things, I will continue to believe that you are simply concluding that any and all things are of god's doing. Which is really no answer at all.