sighhswolf

Thanks for your responses, they are exactly what I would expect to see.
It would seem that almost every single person I talk to about this little communication problem
no matter if they are theist or non-theist, has
almost the same response.

Good communications between supervision and associates is vital if the team is to be efficient
and have a real opportunity to maintain goals.

The usual response is, "if the boss wants something done, let him tell me."
"You are not my boss and you dont tell me what to do."
"How do I know the boss really said that? And how come he told you to tell me?"

I understand these responses, and feel that there
should always be direct communication from management to associates, not third party directives issued through fellow associates.
To establish a smooth seamless operation every single member of the team must be on the same frequency and the boss needs to make sure he is personally involved and supplies the group with whatever tools are necessary to further the goals.

Supervision must speak to and advise each and every member that he/she is available for whatever support is necessary.
And the action of handing directives to one team member to "pass on" to the rest is asking for a major breakdown in communications and usually will result in the fostering of ill will and resentment within the group.

With that in mind, I think my motive for this question is clear.

If you refuse to accept the word of a fellow employee as to instructions given to you from the boss and request the common courtesy of direct
involvement and direct communication in the work enviornment, how could you blindly accept third party directives from your god?

And moreover, why do you think that this god would be handing down directives through men to men about the most controversial of all issues
that of your salvation and where you will spend eternity after the death of the body?

And, if god is aware that there are many temptations and opportunities to abuse power and that there are many false holy men on this earth
then why would this being knowing the human potential for lies and deception entrust this message to mere mortal men, to be passed on or handed down to it's creations?

God didnt write the Bible.
Men did.
God doesnt communicate his wishes to us personally, he/she "sends/ hands down" messages
and directives to human beings to give to human beings.

If religion was a business run by god for profit, it would never succeed, it would fail due to a serious communications problem.(although it would seem to be making money at present)
Too many bosses, and not enough associates.
By handing down directives through associates to associates there has been misinterpretations,
and differing methods, no one is reading off the same page and receiving the same information.
Even if they all have the same long range goal,
the communications are haphazard at best and down right incompetent at worse.

You would think that if this god is benevolent and has the best interests of his creations at heart, he would do them the common courtesy of
direct communication and positive reinforcement
of goals.

Wolf

HelenM

If I could be this controlled, I'd politely ask all the details I could get out of my co-worker about where this strange instruction came from, without getting angry or asserting he was lying...

Then I'd go check it out with the boss - if I could. 'Go to the source' is generally the best thing to do. I wouldn't tell the boss who said it to me right away...I would be as discreet as possible.

If I could be this controlled - I would not go around talking about this to other co-workers...I would not want to escalate this into something worse than it is.

If the co-worker is out of line I'd hope that would be dealt with but in a discreet way that is best for everyone.

Who knows...maybe he/she is mentally ill and hallucinated it...maybe he she really believes it

I would try not to assume what motives the co-worker would have for telling me this.

But if their motives are later proved one way or another, I would accept the truth about them. Not kid myself about what they were.

And I'd try to be flexible that - who knows - there might be a day when it's better to clean the floor than make a fuss about it. Life is like that sometimes...

It would depend on a lot of things, really. If this was a real situation I'd probably know a lot more about the bosses character, my co-workers character, why the floor needed cleaning etc etc...which could affect my decision about what to do.

love
Helen

sighhswolf

And I'd try to be flexible that - who knows - there might be a day when it's better to clean the floor than make a fuss about it. Life is like that sometimes...

It would depend on a lot of things, really. If this was a real situation I'd probably know a lot more about the bosses character, my co-workers character, why the floor needed cleaning etc etc...which could affect my decision about what to do.

love
Helen

Good answer Helen....
Which is the logical response to the problem and would be the best way to handle the situation, to avoid any misunderstanding.
BUT Helen, you would "THINK" you would "reason"
and you would make a decision based on experience
"first hand experience" ------with your boss and your coworker.

You would base your reaction and your response on the hard evidence that you have gained through the personal interaction with your boss and coworkers.

You would know through one on one communication what your boss expects of you issued from his/her own lips, not from hearsay or someone elses interpretation of what the boss wants.

And that is the real answer, one on one communication. From whomever holds the last and final responsibility for the welfare of those
who are charged with following standard operating procedures.

If you hold the last word, and you are going to dole out praise or condemnation, salary increases or unemployment, based on performance to standard.
Then you owe it to those who will be judged to personally physically lay out the plans and the
rules that will give your people the best opportunity to succeed.
And you must make yourself available to each and every one of them in the event they have issues to resolve.
You cannot hide in your office, and you cannot "send word" to the production area via a third party that you select at random and expect not to have misunderstandings.

We would all balk at the self appointed representative of the boss telling us how to do our jobs.
We would question any directive that was issued from a third party and pretty much demand that the boss himself make his wishes known to each of us.
Now whether those wishes are made known through group meetings WITH THE BOSS, or individually, WITH THE BOSS, doesnt really matter.

What matters is that each person has heard the word from the boss not sent down from "on high" via messenger, And certainly not through a third party who has no more knowledge or "inside" information as each of us have/had.
Being honest just about every single person of whom I have asked this question, has said they want the information directly from the boss.

I wonder why we spend years learning how to be better managers, learning proper communication skills, sharpening speaking skills in order to attain the status of a productive and caring leader, yet we dont hold the "creator" to the same standards?

How many non-believers do you think there would be
if this supreme being would hold a shift meeting
and simply explain in his own words what was expected from his people and what he plans to offer in support of the efforts?
And plainly indicate an "open door" policy for handling grievances?

I cant be held accountable for standards that are "sent to me" through a third party, that may or may not have gotten the standards correct, or relayed them exactly as the boss wants.

My boss on the other hand is directly responsible
for my being given proper training, and proper tools with which to attain the standards he sets.
Ultimately, the boss must take final responsibility for my actions, as his subordinate.

Why would we expect less from a socalled loving
and fatherly god figure? The boss of morality so to speak.
Has anyone had a conference with god lately?
If they have can they validate the discussion?

The haphazard method of communication that has been the hallmark of this divine being, and his refusal to speak to the group prefering instead to sit in the office and send word for what he wants via messenger would not be acceptable to any manufacturing operation and he would more than likely be fired in short time for being incompetent.

Wolf

HelenM

Wolf

I think you'll find that it goes like this:

3rd party=preacher
preacher says "Don't take it from me - check whether God really said it!"
meaning "look in the Bible to see if what the Bible says is the same as what I say.

The Bible is equated to what the Boss says.

That's how it is, in conservative Christian circles, for the most part.

I.e. the Bible=the Boss's direct communication.

Well, I expect you knew that's what conservative Christians ('fundies') believe, though...

love
Helen

sighhswolf

Yep.....thats the way it goes doesnt it.
And no one talks to the one in charge......a large mistake.
Sort of like well this is what he said...here is the manual read it yourself.
But still no word from the boss........
The manual wasnt written by the boss, and the manual wasnt even given to the production people by the boss....and the boss may be expecting something entirely different from the standard
set by the manual.

But the last comment is this, people want to know who they are working for.
They want to have access to that person, and they want to believe that person respects them for their efforts and actually see's and documents good efforts along with those cases that may not measure up to standard.

And more importantly, a boss who manages through third party communications, is seen as not caring.
If he does not even take the time to speak with us or show his face in the production areas, he must not care, so why should we?
It is vital to establish good and unbroken lines of communication if you are to succeed in the plan or goals you have set.
And it is my opinion that our heavenly boss could care less what happens to any of his team.
Because he doesnt bother to say a word, dosent bother to even wave down and say Hi Yall is everything OK???
I mean hell he dont have to come all the way down here, most of us would be happy just to hear from him, some small word of encouragement.
Of course that is not going to happen, cause he aint there anyway!! Ha!

Wolf

HelenM

Well, this is how it is, Wolf:

You have set forth a list of things that are necessary to prove that a Boss is a caring decent person, and then according to you, God does not measure up to these - so either He doesn't care or He doesn't exist. (You believe the latter)

Christians evidently have a list of what would show God to exist and be caring, which evidently, according to them, He satisfies.

The lists and/or the perception of whether God meets list requirements must be different.

Not a surprise

love
Helen

sighhswolf

Yes thats true Helen,
For every trait I would consider to be "ungodly",
there would be an explanation from christians to counterbalance those traits I would mention.
I expect that when I speak or write anything derogatory concerning the christian god and his attributes.

I think that the Jews have summed up the issue very nicely when they say that their belief is grounded by their ancestors actually hearing god speak, the actual voice of god speaking to an entire nation (such as they were at that time).
Christianity makes no such claim.

My point is that we know how easily information
can be skewed when being passed on by those who do not understand the reasoning behind the information.
Humans have a tendency to embellish truth to suit their own agendas.
It was pretty well known that the early church fathers were prone to exaggerate events, and insert their own convictions into Biblical text.
Not having any original sources to verify and support the texts, we are presented with a document that cannot be trusted as truth any more than the fable of Jack and the Beanstalk.

We see clergy involved in scandals, and unacceptable social conduct on a regular basis, yet many christians seem to be oblivious to those events.

There remains a very large and glaring communications gap between the christian god and his followers, which could be, and should be, addressed by this being if in point of fact humans will be rewarded or punished based on the adherence to the communication record ie: The
Bible.

Why do you think that this supreme being choses
not to have direct contact with the human population?
The issue of "free will" would not be compromised
by a straight forward communication from the god himself, humans would still have the option to follow or not.

But the debate would be ended, and everyone would be reading off the same page, effectively destroying the 24,000 or so different views of christianity and god.

A loving and caring divine being it would seem to me, would make every attempt to personally guide mankind to a common goal and provide the tools necessary to attain those goals.
Present himself, and show his intentions, and let his creations decide to accept what he offers or not.

This would not be third party actions, but word from the mouth of the being.

Wolf

Jamie_L

Actually, it's like this:

Your co-worker says the boss told you to clean the floor. You question him. He says, "if you don't believe me, read this" - then he hands you a stack of photocopies of photocopies which he says were written by other co-workers who claimed to have talked to the boss, but who have since retired.

Edited to add:
When you try to read the stack of papers, they are confusing and contradictory - and don't seem to actually say anything about cleaning the floor. When you bring this to the attention of your co-worker, he calmly explains his interpretation of the papers, which is that they agree with his sentiment that the boss wants you to clean the floor.

Leaving you back at square one - your co-worker tells you the boss wants you to clean the floor.

At this point, the suggested corse of action is to shred the papaers, litter the floor with them, clock out, and find a new job.

Jamie

[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jamie_L ]</p>

sighhswolf

Excellent grasp of the situation Jamie !!
A good post right to the point.
And the point is simply, as has been said time and time again, why doesnt the boss tell you himself??

And secondly....if you are given bad information
or no information or information interpreted by
someone of your own classification that has no more experience than yuourself, and you fail to reach your goal, who is really to blame for that failure?
Who has the responsibility, the final responsibility for the success or failure of your team?
As a manager I am responsible for the team members and their production and their progress toward their goals.
If those people fail it will be because I have not given them the proper tools or the proper explanation.
If I delegate my responsibility for proper communication to team members who may or may not get the information correct, then I am the one at fault.

The final responsibility rests with the boss.
If the boss fails to establish an open line of communication, and the team fails to reach their goals, how can the boss then exact punishment for that failure, or even praise for accomplishments?

In a working enviornment and a team concept everyone must be aware of the goals for the entire work force.
If several different depts. are getting conflicting information how can anyone be sure they are getting correct direction, and what source is the correct source?

This is my view of the problem with organized religion.
And it would seem that the boss has not been personally involved for quite a number of years.
Wolf

HelenM

Your co-worker says the boss told you to clean the floor.

Ok, I have some questions.

Is it only you who is supposed to clean the floor?

If not, then is this co-worker leading the way in cleaning the floor, by example?

I think that would have some influence on how skeptical you would be of what the co-worker told you.

Interesting allegory, Jamie

love
Helen