Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BadBadBad · 09-08-2004, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

None, since "hell" (RE: Sheol, Hades) means "grave." Where the torment (the anguish of one finding out he/she has not been granted the gift of everlasting life, but everlasting death) comes in would be at the site of Gehenna (the "lake of fire"), which is what so often seems to get confused with "hell" in this forum. Gehenna is where the Second Death (the final one) is supposed to occur. For those who "have their part in the lake of fire," it is everlasting punishment (no return from it; no more chances after this for eternity), not the everlasting act of punishing.

So are you saying that the everlasting punishment of hell is just simply death?

ten to the eleventh · 09-08-2004, 10:25 AM

Well, he'd better not be, because that would be the Doctrine of Annihilation, a heresy. That's a paddlin'. And Hell to boot.

inquisitive01 · 09-08-2004, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brettc

So are you saying that the everlasting punishment of hell is just simply death?

"Hell" (formerly SHEOL, or "the grave," in the original language) is NOT the punishment, but is an intermediate stage of rest between death and the resurrection when Jesus returns to "judge the nations." The Second (final) Death at Gehenna (the "lake of fire and brimstone") is the punishment (for those not saved), and results in those not saved being denied the gift of everlasting life. The "torment" (or anguish/great sorrow) refers to what will be felt by those who will have to "have their part in the lake of fire" rather than being able to share in the great love and peace available with the gift of everlasting life.

In other words, those not saved are simply put out of their misery in the Second Death at Gehenna, while those saved are granted the gift of everlasting life (along with the great peace and love that accompanies it, as described in the Bible).

So, to answer your question, the Second Death is the everlasting (lasts forever and cannot be undone) punishment (NOT punishing) you are referring to.

ten to the eleventh · 09-08-2004, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

"Hell" (formerly SHEOL, or "the grave," in the original language) is NOT the punishment, but is an intermediate stage of rest between death and the resurrection when Jesus returns to "judge the nations." The Second (final) Death at Gehenna (the "lake of fire and brimstone") is the punishment (for those not saved), and results in those not saved being denied the gift of everlasting life. The "torment" (or anguish/great sorrow) refers to what will be felt by those who will have to "have their part in the lake of fire" rather than being able to share in the great love and peace available with the gift of everlasting life.

In other words, those not saved are simply put out of their misery in the Second Death at Gehenna, while those saved are granted the gift of everlasting life (along with the great peace and love that accompanies it, as described in the Bible).

So, to answer your question, the Second Death is the everlasting (lasts forever and cannot be undone) punishment (NOT punishing) you are referring to.

So can the souls in the waiting room change their minds while there, and accept Jesus, and thus gain everlasting life? Please provide the biblical basis for your answer.

Thanks,
ten to the eleventh

edit: please provide, also, the biblical basis for you belief that the souls in the lake of fire are "put out of their misery" rather than being left alive to suffer.

funinspace · 09-08-2004, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

"Hell" (formerly SHEOL, or "the grave," in the original language) is NOT the punishment, but is an intermediate stage of rest between death and the resurrection when Jesus returns to "judge the nations." The Second (final) Death at Gehenna (the "lake of fire and brimstone") is the punishment (for those not saved), and results in those not saved being denied the gift of everlasting life. The "torment" (or anguish/great sorrow) refers to what will be felt by those who will have to "have their part in the lake of fire" rather than being able to share in the great love and peace available with the gift of everlasting life.

In other words, those not saved are simply put out of their misery in the Second Death at Gehenna, while those saved are granted the gift of everlasting life (along with the great peace and love that accompanies it, as described in the Bible).

So, to answer your question, the Second Death is the everlasting (lasts forever and cannot be undone) punishment (NOT punishing) you are referring to.

Hum, many a Xian, and some NT verses seam to disagree. Though I know there are other verses that contradict this idea somewhat. Yeah the NT is kind of fun that way, spin the verses the way one prefers them, since it's all so convoluted...

Here's such a disagrement with your view:
http://customer.wcta.net/newton/Bible%20Teachings.html

Quote:

All true believers shall enjoy God's presence for eternity. However, all people who do not repent and trust Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord before death shall suffer eternal, conscious punishment in the Lake of Fire, separated from God.

KJV Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

KJV Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

KJV Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

KJV Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

:huh:

BadBadBad · 09-08-2004, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

"Hell" (formerly SHEOL, or "the grave," in the original language) is NOT the punishment, but is an intermediate stage of rest between death and the resurrection when Jesus returns to "judge the nations." The Second (final) Death at Gehenna (the "lake of fire and brimstone") is the punishment (for those not saved), and results in those not saved being denied the gift of everlasting life. The "torment" (or anguish/great sorrow) refers to what will be felt by those who will have to "have their part in the lake of fire" rather than being able to share in the great love and peace available with the gift of everlasting life.

In other words, those not saved are simply put out of their misery in the Second Death at Gehenna, while those saved are granted the gift of everlasting life (along with the great peace and love that accompanies it, as described in the Bible).

So, to answer your question, the Second Death is the everlasting (lasts forever and cannot be undone) punishment (NOT punishing) you are referring to.

So what you're saying is that I don't have an eternal soul at all. I die. Then I rest, in hell, until Jesus finally gets around to his infamous return. Then I die once and for all. Why do I need to rest in hell?

What you're saying is that I don't have an eternal soul at all. What you're saying is that outside this undefinable rest in hell, I just die a regular death absolutely no different than any other animal.

inquisitive01 · 09-08-2004, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brettc

So what you're saying is that I don't have an eternal soul at all. I die. Then I rest, in hell, until Jesus finally gets around to his infamous return. Then I die once and for all. Why do I need to rest in hell?

What you're saying is that I don't have an eternal soul at all. What you're saying is that outside this undefinable rest in hell, I just die a regular death absolutely no different than any other animal.

No, I didn't say that. The soul might be the only part that would be resurrected (not the flesh). To define this more I would have to know exactly what a soul is, but nobody (regardless of their religion or lack of religion) knows this. Of course, for all we know, this resurrection may well involve us coming completely back to life (soul and flesh) prior to the "judgement of the nations."

Apparently, the soul does not "die" during our first death but, for those who are not saved, the Second (final) Death must destroy the soul.

inquisitive01 · 09-08-2004, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

Hum, many a Xian, and some NT verses seam to disagree. Though I know there are other verses that contradict this idea somewhat. Yeah the NT is kind of fun that way, spin the verses the way one prefers them, since it's all so convoluted...

Here's such a disagrement with your view:
http://customer.wcta.net/newton/Bible%20Teachings.html
:huh:

Note that in Revelation 20:13 it says "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (notice it says "the dead" rather than "those alive and suffering). Also note that the Verse in Matthew says "everlasting punishment" (punishment is a noun), NOT everlasting punishing (the word "punishing" would be a verb, but is not used here).

The "lake of fire and brimstone" (Gehenna) is where the "fire" part comes in, and is to be the site of the Second Death for those not saved.

Edited to add: Also notice that it says Second Death. One cannot be alive and suffering if one is dead (RE: Death).

inquisitive01 · 09-08-2004, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ten to the eleventh

So can the souls in the waiting room change their minds while there, and accept Jesus, and thus gain everlasting life? Please provide the biblical basis for your answer.

Thanks,
ten to the eleventh

edit: please provide, also, the biblical basis for you belief that the souls in the lake of fire are "put out of their misery" rather than being left alive to suffer.

To answer your first question: apparently one cannot "change their mind" during the judgement (or while in the grave, or "hell"), since it is based on how we live this life. For the second question, see my previous post (the Second Death part).

funinspace · 09-08-2004, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inquisitive01

Note that in Revelation 20:13 it says "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (notice it says "the dead" rather than "those alive and suffering). Also note that the Verse in Matthew says "everlasting punishment" (punishment is a noun), NOT everlasting punishing (the word "punishing" would be a verb, but is not used here).

The "lake of fire and brimstone" (Gehenna) is where the "fire" part comes in, and is to be the site of the Second Death for those not saved.

Edited to add: Also notice that it says Second Death. One cannot be alive and suffering if one is dead (RE: Death).

Well that's a more pleasant view, but I still think the fundies have just as reasonable argument. I'd say that's a very fine splitting of hairs to say that "everalasting punishment" is not a forever punishing event because you see "punishment" as a noun. Ma 25:46 makes no sense at all in the context you are trying to put it into. Here's the whole sentence again:
"And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.�? Now if your argument were true, then the word "life" would need to be "living" for heaven to be forever as well.

Here's a couple more verses for context:
Matthew 13:49 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth�?
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched�?
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone�?

As far as the dead already being dead so they can't be punished, you are the one trying to have a soul or whatever, that is beyond the physical. So why can't you have the non-physical part still around after the body is dead, waiting for a future state/condition? Again that makes no sense. It sounds to me like you are trying to project the Hebrew Canon's older view of death into the NT where it doesn't really fit too well.

Yep, like I said before you can get pretty much whatever you want out of this canon...like a thousand arguing sects...

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-08-2004, 10:25 AM	#12
ten to the eleventh Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,682	Well, he'd better not be, because that would be the Doctrine of Annihilation, a heresy. That's a paddlin'. And Hell to boot.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.