Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mad as Hell · 02-28-2002, 10:01 AM

>She "justified" her actions by claiming that >life would have been hell <
Not that their life would be hell, but that they would end up in hell. She's getting this from religious beliefs based on the "Word of God", i.e. that the unrighteous go to hell.

> If she killed her children because God told >her to, that would be an insanity defense...
I don't know how the Xians would deal with this.
God talks to lots of them, but they don't see themselves as crazy. God also told Abraham to kill his child, but they don't consider that a crazy act.(Never mine that God stopped him from doing the deed)

> but the fact that she has to justify what she >did is a clear sign she knew what she was doing >was wrong.
and if she claimed that God told her to kill her kids would that not be her justifying her actions?

butswana · 02-28-2002, 10:14 AM

I think she is a witch.
A trial by dunking is in order!!

Illithid · 02-28-2002, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins:
The question is whether she knew what she was doing was wrong. Nothing else matters and I think some people don't realize this.

I personally don't care about her mental state, as it pertains to the consequences of her actions. Someone who has demonstrated that she's dangerous to that extent simply should be prevented from ever having the opportunity again. Prison or a mental institution or execution, I don't care, as long as she never gets out. If she knew it was wrong, she deserves punishment. If she didn't, she's too dangerous ever to rejoin society anyway.

If I were insane enough to murder my son, and then became "cured" and sane again, I'd probably kill myself from guilt. How could I live with that? How could I ever face any member of my family again?

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Illithid ]

SharonDee · 03-01-2002, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brighid:
There is one thing that bothers me about this and how it is being handled in the media -- specifically the cries for empathy for this white, Christian woman. We all know if this was an equally depressed, mentally ill minority man or woman who came in to her home, chased her children down and murdered each one that the treatment of that criminal would be much different, and the portrayal of that person would be different as well.

Yes, the portrayal would be different but not because the murderer is a "white, Christian woman". We'd be howling for the blood of ANY stranger who dared walk into a home and raise a violent hand to its inhabitants, especially when the victims are children.

The difference in the Yates case is that she did this to her own children. The thinking here goes, "How mentally ill must a person be to do this to her own flesh and blood? That poor sick woman." This is why her mental state during the murder is much more likely to arouse sympathy for her.

Then again, I think of the Susan Smith case and wonder why no one felt sorry for her when she killed her children. Oh yeah... she not only killed her children, but she played us while she pretended that someone else did it.

babelfish · 03-01-2002, 04:22 AM

I haven't heard much about this case from the Christian media. Has anyone else seen/heard anything? It seems they have been strangely silent regarding this horrible tragedy.

It shows an admirable amount of restraint on the part of the so-called "mainstream secular" media, in my opinion, that they have refrained from turning Andrea Yates into the poster child for anti-fundamentalism.

It sickens me to watch those videos of her that they keep showing where she's lovingly laying her hands on her beautiful children. I don't know exactly why, but it almost makes me feel nauseated to watch that.

brighid · 03-01-2002, 04:50 AM

Butswana -

To compare her to a witch would be to lower a witch to the status of a homicidal maniac - don't insult us like that

------------------------------------------

I don't fully agree with the "how mentally ill she must be to kill her children crap". Imagine if it was a Hispanic or Black Christian women in TEXAS who did the same thing. Or worse if she happened to be an atheist or pagan. They WOULD likely be screaming to string her up and Pat and Jerry would be out there screaming - SEE how EVIL those atheists/pagans REALLY are! We told you they practice human sacrifice. And if this wasn't a human sacrifice (so her children wouldn't live in hell, but rather send them to God) I don't know what is - minus the elaborate rituals.

ANYONE, stranger or family has to be seriously fucked up to kill children. She has no excuses and she KNEW it was wrong, before she did it, while she did it and after she did it. Why else would she have fought so long to suppress those urges?

And she needs to be kept away from society - either in jail, in the grave or in a mental institution so you can't harm anyone else ever again. And that asshole husband of hers should be arrested for negligence.

Brighid

scombrid · 03-01-2002, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
I think that a mentally ill person will fantasize according to his or her beliefs.

Although the particular things Andrea Yates said and believed do come from Christian theology, the idea that her kids are better off dead because she's such a terrible mother, could have been taken from any framework of belief, I'd say.

So I don't think that she'd necessarily have been prevented from killing them if she had different religious beliefs, or no religious beliefs.

That's my personal opinion. I don't know though, of course.

love
Helen

I added the bold

I disagree. While religion likely didn't cause the mental illness, it did prevent her seeking treatment. Had she lacked religion, or just been of a more moderate sect, she would have been more likely to seek the help of modern medicine instead of seeking divine help. If God did have his hand in this, he lost his grip.

babelfish · 03-02-2002, 06:39 AM

Quote:

I disagree. While religion likely didn't cause the mental illness, it did prevent her seeking treatment. Had she lacked religion, or just been of a more moderate sect, she would have been more likely to seek the help of modern medicine instead of seeking divine help. If God did have his hand in this, he lost his grip.

You took the words right out of my mouth! Why do people want to tiptoe around the fact that religion played a huge part in this tragedy? If she had not been under the influence of this particular belief system, she may have sought effective medical treatment, she may have had a more manageable number of children, etc. etc.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: babelfish ]

butswana · 03-02-2002, 07:26 AM

Sorry, brighid.

I heard that when she called her husband after the deed was done, befor she said a word he asked her,"which one?" He knew she was dangerous.
Good 'ol butter fingers sky daddy, eh scombrid.

Oresta · 03-02-2002, 08:05 AM

HelenSL:
I think that a mentally ill person will fantasize according to his or her beliefs.

Of course they do. Mental ilness is expressed in the frame of one's culture and experience, that is the only stuff the mind has with which to work.
This woman is obviously very ill. The psychiatrist who examined her after her arrest (i.e., not an "expert witness" for the defense) testified yesterday, describing her as "schizophrenic". She has been hearing voices on and off for some time. The voices were back with delivery of the last child. Knowing right from wrong doesn't mean she could/should have been able to resist her horrific compulsion to murder her children.
While the family's religion is not the cause of her illness, it certainly is a major reason that she didn't get the professional help she needed.
She was surrounded by a pack of zealous fools whom I believe are fully complicit in the death of those children.

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02-28-2002, 10:01 AM	#11
Mad as Hell Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Austin ,Texas Posts: 20	>She "justified" her actions by claiming that >life would have been hell < Not that their life would be hell, but that they would end up in hell. She's getting this from religious beliefs based on the "Word of God", i.e. that the unrighteous go to hell. > If she killed her children because God told >her to, that would be an insanity defense... I don't know how the Xians would deal with this. God talks to lots of them, but they don't see themselves as crazy. God also told Abraham to kill his child, but they don't consider that a crazy act.(Never mine that God stopped him from doing the deed) > but the fact that she has to justify what she >did is a clear sign she knew what she was doing >was wrong. and if she claimed that God told her to kill her kids would that not be her justifying her actions?

02-28-2002, 10:14 AM	#12
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	I think she is a witch. A trial by dunking is in order!!

03-01-2002, 04:22 AM	#15
babelfish Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Augusta, Maine, USA Posts: 2,046	I haven't heard much about this case from the Christian media. Has anyone else seen/heard anything? It seems they have been strangely silent regarding this horrible tragedy. It shows an admirable amount of restraint on the part of the so-called "mainstream secular" media, in my opinion, that they have refrained from turning Andrea Yates into the poster child for anti-fundamentalism. It sickens me to watch those videos of her that they keep showing where she's lovingly laying her hands on her beautiful children. I don't know exactly why, but it almost makes me feel nauseated to watch that.

03-01-2002, 04:50 AM	#16
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Butswana - To compare her to a witch would be to lower a witch to the status of a homicidal maniac - don't insult us like that ------------------------------------------ I don't fully agree with the "how mentally ill she must be to kill her children crap". Imagine if it was a Hispanic or Black Christian women in TEXAS who did the same thing. Or worse if she happened to be an atheist or pagan. They WOULD likely be screaming to string her up and Pat and Jerry would be out there screaming - SEE how EVIL those atheists/pagans REALLY are! We told you they practice human sacrifice. And if this wasn't a human sacrifice (so her children wouldn't live in hell, but rather send them to God) I don't know what is - minus the elaborate rituals. ANYONE, stranger or family has to be seriously fucked up to kill children. She has no excuses and she KNEW it was wrong, before she did it, while she did it and after she did it. Why else would she have fought so long to suppress those urges? And she needs to be kept away from society - either in jail, in the grave or in a mental institution so you can't harm anyone else ever again. And that asshole husband of hers should be arrested for negligence. Brighid

03-02-2002, 07:26 AM	#19
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	Sorry, brighid. I heard that when she called her husband after the deed was done, befor she said a word he asked her,"which one?" He knew she was dangerous. Good 'ol butter fingers sky daddy, eh scombrid.

03-02-2002, 08:05 AM	#20
Oresta Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Detroit, MI Posts: 1,107	HelenSL: I think that a mentally ill person will fantasize according to his or her beliefs. Of course they do. Mental ilness is expressed in the frame of one's culture and experience, that is the only stuff the mind has with which to work. This woman is obviously very ill. The psychiatrist who examined her after her arrest (i.e., not an "expert witness" for the defense) testified yesterday, describing her as "schizophrenic". She has been hearing voices on and off for some time. The voices were back with delivery of the last child. Knowing right from wrong doesn't mean she could/should have been able to resist her horrific compulsion to murder her children. While the family's religion is not the cause of her illness, it certainly is a major reason that she didn't get the professional help she needed. She was surrounded by a pack of zealous fools whom I believe are fully complicit in the death of those children.

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