Haran

I believe the NJB is considered a relatively reliable translation, though I've heard they pick some strange variants in places...

Not sure why it is a good thing that it translates parakletos as "paraclete" though. Isn't that why you buy an English translation though? What does the word paraclete tell you if you don't know Greek? Just curious...

Thanks,
Haran

Egoinos

Haran,
Probably not much, if you're not a Catholic. But I read up on what it meant, and as scholars can't seem to decide what it actually means in the context, it seems better to stick in the original, and then list as many of the translations as possible, than only use one of those translations.

ps418

Just passing through . . .

Back when I gave a hoot about the bible, I read the James White book listed above. I'd highly recommend it for KJV-only advocates.

Patrick

Polycarp

Haran & Cowboy X,

I don't know if you guys have seen this before, but there's a great Greek tool that I don't see promoted very frequently. It's an index for the Bauer lexicon, but you could really use it with any lexicon. The gimmick in this book is that it shows the entire New Testament in order with ONLY the lexical forms of each word. So there's no need to try to decipher the lexical form of the word as you find it in the NT. You just look in this index and it gives you the lexical form, along with the page number on which it's found in the 2nd edition of Bauer's lexicon. This thing can save you hours of time. I'll second Haran's reccomendation on Bauer's third edition. It's the best lexicon available. I'm still waiting for them to come out with the new index for Bauer's third edition, so the page numbers will match up properly. Here's the lowdown on the book

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310440319/ref=cm_mp_wli_/103-7701528-8255816?coliid=I3DWWBMIF3OHHX" target="_blank">Index to Bauer's Lexicon</a>

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Polycarp ]</p>

Haran

Thanks for the input Polycarp! I had not heard of this index, though I think (like you) that I'll wait till it is out for the 3rd edition of BDAG.

This book sounds somewhat similar to an Analytical lexicon used for parsing the Greek. The three that I'm familiar with are: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310542103/qid=1013203681/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/002-4800928-9318406" target="_blank">Mounce's</a>, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0943575338/qid=1013203756/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/002-4800928-9318406" target="_blank">Perschbacher's</a>, and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0801021359/qid=1013203794/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-4800928-9318406" target="_blank">Friberg's</a>. I believe the Friberg's is the most popular among scholars.

Thanks,
Haran

Tomije

I will take my NRSV version of the Bible over any other, but of course, there are massive translation problems even in that.

The best example I kind think of is when Jesus suggested that it would be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. I'm sure there is someone in this thread who can identify the passage.

However, it's a mistranslation, and most Biblical scholars will tell you that, if you buy them a couple of drinks. The current translation suggests it's impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. After all, there are no tiny camels. Well, at least not that tiny.

It's a mistranslation, and every Biblical scholar knows it! The Aramaic word for "camel" and "a wide thread" are awfully similar, and it got mistranslated back in the day, and was never fixed, because it became a famous line. How many unfamous lines haven't been fixed?

Someone who wants to read the Bible themselves, without scholarly input, should learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. For those of us who think it's all pretty silly, English works fine.

And this is exactly the kind of thing Moslems avoid by saying the only true Qu'ran is in Arabic.

Haran

I, personally, don't consider any translation to have "massive" problems, but then I suppose that is a matter of opinion.

It is a dangerous thing to use the phrase "most Biblical scholars"...

Actually, I am unsure of any relation between the Aramaic words for "camel" and "a wide thread", so it is possible there could be. Perhaps someone else like Apikorus could comment on this. I know the Hebrew/Aramaic for "camel" (gimel), but not for "a wide thread".

Regardless, the NT was written in Greek, and in Greek there is a similarity between the word "camel" (kamelon) and "a rope, ship's cable" (kamilon). It is a difference between an "eta" in "camel" and an "iota" in "a rope".

It is true that some Biblical manuscripts contain "a rope" in place of "camel", however, read what Bruce Metzger, a prominent scholar of the Greek New Testament has to say about it in his <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/3438060108/qid=1013263868/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4800928-9318406" target="_blank">Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament</a>:

The reading "camel" was chosen by him and other excellent textual critics as "certain", ranking it with an "A" on a scale of "A" to "D".

From the actual critical text of the Nestle-Aland which I posted a link to earlier, one can see in the critical apparatus that, indeed as Metzger states, the MSS which use "a rope" are late. Both the majority, the oldest MSS, and MSS that range over a wide variety of textual families, read "camel".

Therefore, it seems that "camel" is the correct word for the text.

Pretty silly? Well, that's certainly an opinion, even if it is one you're entitled to have.

Otherwise, what you have said is very true. As a Christian, I have attempted to learn the texts behind the translations in order to better understand what I believe and why.

Haran

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: Haran ]</p>

hezekiah jones

lololol

These things are <a href="http://shop.store.yahoo.com/mountzion-sg/nkjvextremeteenbible.html" target="_blank">EXPENSIVE</a>!

St. Paul MN Atheist

The link you provided is for a store in Singapore. If the price is quoted in Singapore dollars, it converts to about 24 USD (U.S. dollars).

The Extreme Teen Bible is available at Amazon.com for about 17.50 USD, plus shipping.

[ February 09, 2002: Message edited by: St. Paul MN Atheist ]</p>

hezekiah jones

D'oh! So it is.

Still a rip-off. You can buy three copies of A.J. Ayer's Language, Truth and Logic for less than 18 bucks.