Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 02-04-2003, 03:14 PM

Echidna, great post!

David

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

echidna · 02-04-2003, 03:16 PM

M&M, if I can briefly summarise your argument, I think it goes :

1) Capitalism isn�t perfect
2) Therefore socialism is

Forgive me if I refute it as follows :

1) Crap

Vorkosigan · 02-04-2003, 03:17 PM

Facts that the cheerleaders of Capitalism ignore.

1. The vast majority of Capitalist countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens.

Quite true. The majority of religious countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think religion is the cause?

The majority of African countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think being African is the cause?

The majority of countries in the tropics are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think being in the tropics is the cause?

Simpleminded logic, me and me. Explaining the poor growth records of any country must take into account a range of factors.

2. The handful of successful capitalist countries such as France, German, Japan, U.S., England etc are countries that had a huge head start and was able to build up vast wealth from other countries resources and other peoples labor.

Let's not forget Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore. And the complaint you made is true of Communist countries like the USSR and China. Have you never heard of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, or the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe?

3. Even the handful of Capitalist countries have uneccassary high percentages of illiterate and amount of citizens that have no health care at all and or live below the poverty line.

Also true of Communist countries. China has a vast pool of unemployed workers, and of course, the "employed" workers are often in State-owned industries that are of negligible economic value, or farm workers of low marginal productivity. The old Soviet Union had similar problems. Unemployment is a bigger issue in Communist than in capitalist societies. Note that I do not think the economic system is entirely to blame in either case, but government development strategy and economic history and conditions. Each country is its own case. Chinese, American and Cuban unemployment have different roots and causes.

4. The countries that were colonial empires are still the leaders of todays economy and what you could call the few successful capitalist regimes.

<Confused> What were the colonies owned by South Korea, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Singapore and Taiwan?

And the colonized and enslaved peoples are still in the poorest of societies

<confused> You mean like Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, the United States, Canada, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico....??

and still are in debt to the "successful" capitalist regimes and still have most of their resources go to the west instead of going to themselves.

<confused> What resources do Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore ship to the West? The resource flows go the other way. Are you aware of history at all?

What is the "Golden Calf" of capitalism supposed to have accomplished? Where is all the democracy that the cheerleaders tell us about? Where is all the PEOPLE living better because of practicing capitalism?

Jebus Crisp, you are ignorant. See history of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, US, Canada....forget it. Anyone dumb enough to engage in rhetoric like this isn't going to be convinced by facts.

The Cheerleaders on this board like to equate the failure of communist countries to the failure of Communism the system.

Duh. Because that's one of the most important causes. I am glad you've admitted that Communism has failed.

Yet the cheerleaders refuse to go by their own standards when examining capitalism and refuse to equate the failure of So many capitalist countries to Capitalism the system. Why the double standard?

Well, it's called "knowledge of history." If one system has a great deal of success with some notable failures, and another entirely a record of failure....never mind. I am sorry for introducing logic into the conversation.

Vorkosigan

David M. Payne · 02-04-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celsus
Well David, uh... thanks I guess. I don't share your optimism about capitalism however--but we can save that for another day. Russian history seems prone to historical revionism, along with German history, because people have such an emotional or ideological dependence on something that backs them up. To be fair, most Marxists are not the propagandist types we get too much of here, and Marx made many important contributions to sociological and historical analysis. I'd add economic analysis to that, but sadly, economists have forgotten him. Have you seen my critique here?

Joel

Actually I'm a big fan of Marx as far as his analyses of what was wrong in the capitalist structure of his day. The problem was his solutions didn't/don't work. I haven�t read your entire link, but I will.

David

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

August Spies · 02-04-2003, 03:29 PM

"The problem was his solutions didn't/don't work. I haven�t read your entire link, but I will. "

If you actually read Marx you will notice he doesn't really have a solutoin, he gives a very thin sketch of how to make a new society... but if is far to thin to really succeed or fail. Its just a brief overview.

echidna · 02-04-2003, 03:37 PM

Marxism might work if it weren't for the Marxists.

emphryio · 02-04-2003, 04:53 PM

Echidna,
The point isn't that America capitalists are the "bad guys" and socialist etc are good, it is that socialism in general hasn't had a chance because of American intervention. Two bad examples(Cuba, Russia) are not proof that socialism doesn't work.

Quote:

Of course not. What cracks me up is that diehard Marxists, when presented with the facts over various communist countries, ignore them with a wave of the hand saying, �well didn�t end up really socialist�. Because what traps the left, is the fact that each violent socialist uprising started with a promise of socialist utopia, and each ended in something which EVEN THE LEFT acknowledges, was far from perfect, in fact was anything but.

You apparently need to do a bit more reading on the subject. (I recall for example that Allende was a democratically elected socialist that America overthrew....)

Yes, it is fantastic to believe Echidna. But I guess I looked into it a bit more than you before dismissing it out of hand. Same with corporate media.

emphryio · 02-04-2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

The majority of African countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think being African is the cause?

Nope actually powerful foreign intervention is the main cause. Sorry if that sounds to simple. Surely there are MANY other factors but foreign intervention is the main cause.

Quote:

Let's not forget Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore. And the complaint you made is true of Communist countries like the USSR and China. Have you never heard of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, or the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe?

America poured aid and investment into Taiwan to ensure that it would be an economic success to stand as a comparison to China.
And I don't know if it's true for certain, but America would certainly have such an interest in South Korea too.

I also recall that South Korea had a far greater degree of government involvement in their economy than what is generally called capitalism up until recently. And recently with increased deregulation their economy has been going downhill.

Also South Korea and Taiwan have been helped by the stability of ... China.

Quote:

Also true of Communist countries. China has a vast pool of unemployed workers, and of course, the "employed" workers are often in State-owned industries that are of negligible economic value, or farm workers of low marginal productivity. The old Soviet Union had similar problems....

(Confused) So? The lack of perfection from two dictatorships proves.....?

Quote:

4. The countries that were colonial empires are still the leaders of todays economy and what you could call the few successful capitalist regimes.

Quote:

<Confused> What were the colonies owned by South Korea, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Singapore and Taiwan?

Yes it is more complicated. To a degree the economic powers decide what will happen in the other countries. Also some of these countries have a high level of economic government involvement.

Quote:

Jebus Crisp, you are ignorant. See history of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, US, Canada....forget it. Anyone dumb enough to engage in rhetoric like this isn't going to be convinced by facts.

Jebus Crisp, you are ignorant. See history of all of Africa and South America. Forget it. (I won't reproduce an equally true and insulting last sentence, I'll leave that sort of thing to you.)

Quote:

Well, it's called "knowledge of history." If one system has a great deal of success with some notable failures, and another entirely a record of failure....never mind. I am sorry for introducing logic into the conversation.

History is largely comprised of people treating each other like shit. It's no surprise there have been no positive examples of socialism. It makes perfect sense the most powerful people would have nothing to do with socialism and would also do whatever neccessary to stop true socialism from taking root anywhere.

And that brings us back to the links I provided which clearly show that actual socialism hasn't had a chance thanks to American imperialism. (Once again the point of the links isn't to paint American government as evil and therefore all other countries as good as Echidna strangely jumped to assuming.)

echidna · 02-04-2003, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emphryio
The point isn't that America capitalists are the "bad guys" and socialist etc are good, it is that socialism in general hasn't had a chance because of American intervention. Two bad examples(Cuba, Russia) are not proof that socialism doesn't work.

Um, who cited 2 examples ? Last time I looked the number was up aound 32 or 42 or 52. How many positive examples do the left cite ? Hint : less than 2.

Point taken on Allende. However I�d remind you that democratic socialists have been elected in the past (I�m not allowed to mention Hitler I suppose), without US interference. And yet, STILL NO WORKING SOCIALIST STATE.

echidna · 02-04-2003, 06:15 PM

I mean really, if you seriously credit the U.S. with succeeding in foiling socialism at every bend, then you seriously give the U.S. administration more credit than they deserve. I mean, really, with such a history of fuckups, you still credit them with vanquishing socialism globally over a century. You empower the U.S. administration as some kind of god-like omnipotence. Surely the last century has shown more U.S. fallibility than anyone would ever require.

This reeks of misplaced blame. I suggest you look elsewhere for reasons why socialism screws up every time.

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02-04-2003, 03:14 PM	#101
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Echidna, great post! David "God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

02-04-2003, 03:16 PM	#102
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	M&M, if I can briefly summarise your argument, I think it goes : 1) Capitalism isn�t perfect 2) Therefore socialism is Forgive me if I refute it as follows : 1) Crap

02-04-2003, 03:17 PM	#103
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Facts that the cheerleaders of Capitalism ignore. 1. The vast majority of Capitalist countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Quite true. The majority of religious countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think religion is the cause? The majority of African countries are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think being African is the cause? The majority of countries in the tropics are poor, have very little medical coverage for their citizens, and very little if any education for their citizens. Do you think being in the tropics is the cause? Simpleminded logic, me and me. Explaining the poor growth records of any country must take into account a range of factors. 2. The handful of successful capitalist countries such as France, German, Japan, U.S., England etc are countries that had a huge head start and was able to build up vast wealth from other countries resources and other peoples labor. Let's not forget Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore. And the complaint you made is true of Communist countries like the USSR and China. Have you never heard of the Chinese occupation of Tibet, or the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe? 3. Even the handful of Capitalist countries have uneccassary high percentages of illiterate and amount of citizens that have no health care at all and or live below the poverty line. Also true of Communist countries. China has a vast pool of unemployed workers, and of course, the "employed" workers are often in State-owned industries that are of negligible economic value, or farm workers of low marginal productivity. The old Soviet Union had similar problems. Unemployment is a bigger issue in Communist than in capitalist societies. Note that I do not think the economic system is entirely to blame in either case, but government development strategy and economic history and conditions. Each country is its own case. Chinese, American and Cuban unemployment have different roots and causes. 4. The countries that were colonial empires are still the leaders of todays economy and what you could call the few successful capitalist regimes. <Confused> What were the colonies owned by South Korea, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, Singapore and Taiwan? And the colonized and enslaved peoples are still in the poorest of societies <confused> You mean like Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, the United States, Canada, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Costa Rica, Puerto Rico....?? and still are in debt to the "successful" capitalist regimes and still have most of their resources go to the west instead of going to themselves. <confused> What resources do Taiwan, South Korea, and Singapore ship to the West? The resource flows go the other way. Are you aware of history at all? What is the "Golden Calf" of capitalism supposed to have accomplished? Where is all the democracy that the cheerleaders tell us about? Where is all the PEOPLE living better because of practicing capitalism? Jebus Crisp, you are ignorant. See history of Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Malaysia, Australia, US, Canada....forget it. Anyone dumb enough to engage in rhetoric like this isn't going to be convinced by facts. The Cheerleaders on this board like to equate the failure of communist countries to the failure of Communism the system. Duh. Because that's one of the most important causes. I am glad you've admitted that Communism has failed. Yet the cheerleaders refuse to go by their own standards when examining capitalism and refuse to equate the failure of So many capitalist countries to Capitalism the system. Why the double standard? Well, it's called "knowledge of history." If one system has a great deal of success with some notable failures, and another entirely a record of failure....never mind. I am sorry for introducing logic into the conversation. Vorkosigan

02-04-2003, 03:29 PM	#105
August Spies Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The Vine Posts: 12,950	"The problem was his solutions didn't/don't work. I haven�t read your entire link, but I will. " If you actually read Marx you will notice he doesn't really have a solutoin, he gives a very thin sketch of how to make a new society... but if is far to thin to really succeed or fail. Its just a brief overview.

02-04-2003, 03:37 PM	#106
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	Marxism might work if it weren't for the Marxists.

02-04-2003, 06:15 PM	#110
echidna Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 2,832	I mean really, if you seriously credit the U.S. with succeeding in foiling socialism at every bend, then you seriously give the U.S. administration more credit than they deserve. I mean, really, with such a history of fuckups, you still credit them with vanquishing socialism globally over a century. You empower the U.S. administration as some kind of god-like omnipotence. Surely the last century has shown more U.S. fallibility than anyone would ever require. This reeks of misplaced blame. I suggest you look elsewhere for reasons why socialism screws up every time.

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