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View Poll Results: Did the holocaust happen
Yes 118 95.93%
No 5 4.07%
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:03 AM   #101
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Originally posted by Jat
Well, the American Government did give natives blankets infected with, I think, Smallpox. One of the earliest reports of germ warfare. They may not have practiced overt genocide, but they did make the native's lives harder than they should have been.
No. In fact this sort fo statement being forwarded as fact is no different than holocaust denial.

It was actually a British Officer who proposed doing so before there was an American Government and the evidence that it was carried out is circumstancial and uncertain.

DC
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:06 AM   #102
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Originally posted by Optional

So what if I said that no, the capital-H-Holocaust never happened... But the Nazi slaughter of Jews and other 'undesirables' in the WWII era certainly DID happen... And the slaughter of the already mentioned native americans also happened, and the slaughter of political 'undesirables' by Stalin also happened, and the Khmer Rouge (however you spell that) slaughter happened, and the slaughter perpetuated by Genghis Khan happened, and so and and so forth ad nausium.

Would that make me a 'Holocaust Denier'?
Its quite different. Its the only time by law a single group of its own people had been targeted for eradication.

DC
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:19 AM   #103
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Originally posted by Mark Alinsky

As far as being a holocaust denier, it's one of those nebulous terms that you can't really define. What is a holocaust denier? If you believe that only 5 million were killed as opposed to 6 million, like Pat Buchanan, does that make you a holocaust denier? If you question whether there was any grand scheme to finish off the Jews or whether there were just arbitrary killings on the Eastern Front, like revisionist historian David Irving, does that make you a holocaust denier?
Pat Buchanan has since backed off of his statements and I think now understands their error.

Irving is a denier. No doubt about it.

As far as defining the term "Holocaust Denier" its quite easy.
A denier usually denier one of three things: (1) 6 million killed, (2) gas chambers, and/or an intention or plan to kill the Jews.

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If you question why there are hundreds of thousands of memorials in the United States dedicated to the alleged murdered 6 million Jews, and practically none to the 20 million or so Ukrainians butchered under Stalin or the tens of millions of Native Americans killed and enslaved by the European colonists, does that make you a holocaust denier? If you believe that the Jews were gassed, but also believe that revisionists like Ernst Z�ndel and Fred Toben should not be incarcerated for exercising their right to free speech, does this qualify?
Most (but not all) memorials and museums of the Holocaust int he U.S. are set up with private funds.

Your claim that there are no other memorials set up for other victims is patently false. THe Unites States Holocaust Memorial Museum in facts deals with other mass killings and continuously displays and provides information onne's that happen up to today. See for example: http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/

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This is my last post here concerning the holocaust, Hitler, race, or the Jews, at least for the time being. I've already been admonished by one of the moderators about my posts, and I personally don't want to get bounced off this site. I didn't come to this site to discuss these topics, but invariably every one of my posts has dealt with these subjects.
You don't want to talk about it because, simply out, history isn't on your side. There are multiple lines of independent evidence which indicate to any neutral and unbiased person that the Nazis engaged in a plan to murder and eradicate Jews from Europe.

DC
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:29 AM   #104
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Originally posted by DigitalChicken

Its quite different.
Yes, but not because of:
Quote:
Its the only time by law a single group of its own people had been targeted for eradication.
Your claim is not accurate.
Queen Elizabeth the First issued a decree that native Irish should be wiped out of one particular area (and by that time the native Irish in that region were part of Britain's "own people"); also, a decreed by state that all male Gypsies in mainland Britain (ditto), IIRC, should be killed was issued around the same time.

The early Middle-Ages state-decreed Spanish treatment of Spanish Jews who refused to convert, or who secretly practised Judaism after official conversion to Christianity, also amounts to eradication.

Moreover, the Middle Ages legally-sanctioned war of the northern French against the southern French, dressed up as an official Crusade agaist Albigenisians/Cathars, amounts in practice in many areas to eradication ---- state/Pope -ordained.
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:47 AM   #105
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Originally posted by Gurdur
Yes, but not because of: Your claim is not accurate.
Queen Elizabeth the First issued a decree that native Irish should be wiped out of one particular area (and by that time the native Irish in that region were part of Britain's "own people"); also, a decreed by state that all male Gypsies in mainland Britain (ditto), IIRC, should be killed was issued around the same time.
...
Well, there are long and arduous arguments as to why these are not equivalent.

The best I can do is suggest the following long and arduous book:The Holocaust in Historical Context

DC
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Old 05-21-2003, 08:55 AM   #106
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Originally posted by Jat
What? You calling most of the Jews in the world liars? How anti-semitic of you.
Aside from your obvious and thoroughly distasteful ad hominem to avoid any real discussion, and the fact that I already rebutted this attempted evasion earlier, I might add that Finkelstein, Silberman, and Mazar who have already been mentioned earlier are Jewish. A large number of giants among the scholars (e.g. Ben-Tor, Vermes, etc.) are also Jewish, as are the vast majority of those involved in the fieldwork at the world famous Hebrew University. Bill Dever (also mentioned previously) also had a brief conversion to Judaism. Our resident expert here, Apikorus, is also Jewish, and he could tell you himself that the Biblical Canaanite invasion was a myth. Your assertions are really getting worse and more desperate by the minute.

Joel
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Old 05-21-2003, 09:24 AM   #107
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Default I smell smoke; let's keep out the flames...

There's been some really great posts and discussions on this thread; let's all keep it civil because I would hate to have to close it.
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Old 05-21-2003, 10:28 AM   #108
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Originally posted by Jat
What? You calling most of the Jews in the world liars? How anti-semitic of you.
I would think that many Jews would realize that there are may parts of the Tanakh which are meant to be metaphorical. You may be confusing them with Xians, who take the words of scripture as literal truth.
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