Kilgore Trout

I'm assuming you mean human sacrifice. Whether or not god was pleased with human sacrifice is not the issue. The story of Jephthah's daughter in Judges 11:29-39 is a great example of a human sacrifice that god approved of. The point is these were not offerings for the forgiveness of sins.

Leviticus chapters 4 and 5 says the only acceptable sin offerings are bulls, sheep, goats, doves, pigeons and flour. It does not say "These are pretty good offerings, but you know what would be a GREAT sacrifice? A perfect god-man!" When god says here is how to do a sin offering, they were supposed to do it EXACTLY like he said, not improvise based on what they think would make a cool offering. Cain "improvised" and offered vegetables to god and god didn't like it. Read Leviticus 10:1-3 for a great example of what happens when you improvise an offering. Aaron's sons tried to offer something that god did not specifically command and god killed them. They thought they were doing the right thing with these offerings, but god didn't. What god says overrules what humans think. If you look at Leviticus chapters 4 and 5, you will see that it is spelled out exactly how you are supposed to prepare these things for sacrifice. Jesus was not at all sacrificed that way. Also it says these were intended for UNINTENTIONAL sins, not all sins like christians claim, and it was for PAST sins, not past and future sins of people who weren't even born yet like they claim Jesus is. Numbers 15:22-29 reiterates the requirements for unitentional sin sacrifices. Again, it says specific animals.
Therefore, since jesus doen't fit any of the requirements of a SIN sacrifice he is an invalid sin sacrifice, so the whole idea of how christians see jesus is meaningless.

Maybe you're right that we don't know whether humans are kosher or not. But as you can see by what I just wrote it is irrelevant when it comes to sin offerings. The point is, since god didn't say to sacrifice humans for sin offerings you can't sacrifice humans for sin offerings.

abospaum

First of all, in Judges 11- there is no mention of God being pleased. Also the way that it is worded in the Tanakh is, "whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, it shall be HaShem's and I will offer it up as a burnt offering." This is not a sacrifice per say but an agreement between one man and God that he will give something of value in exchange for victory. God demanded the highest price that he could extract. Notice that he gave up his own child and not God's child.

With regards to Jack's comment:
Read the first line of Lev 11: "of all the animals that live on the land." Now you may not consider man an animal. On the other hand we know that it is okay to touch a dead animal to eat but to touch a dead person makes you unclean.

Doctor X

Kilgore:

I think I gather your point . . . you want to demonstrate that human sacrifice was not used to expiate sins. Thus, Junior was not a sacrifice for sins.

Okay.

Frankly, I do not know. I am checking out a book--one of the references Collins uses in his paper I quote too much--and it may or may not have more information on human sacrifice in the ancient world. As far as I know, there is not much on "why" of this sacrifice. It would seem "odd"--a lot of work to handle things like purity.

However, "sin" is a different concept then from what we have now--possibly even in the NT. The whole concept of "died for our sins" is a LATE concept not supported by Mk certainly. It is a later apology to give a reason for the execution--he sure as hell did not bring about the "new Kingdom" in time!

abospaum:

I think he was pleased with the concept--he allowed the victory to happen. Compare the case where an king fighting against the Israelites sacrifices his own son on the battlements to his god and his god squishes the Israelites!!

--J.D.

Aerik Von

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MOLD. Nobody has addressed this simple point.

If Jesus was the final sacrifice for all our sins, why hasn't my sinful mold gone away?!?!

Doctor X

Er . . . um . . . have you considered . . . er . . . washing your feet?

--J.D.

Aerik Von

NO! I WANT TO DO A BIRD SACRIFICE BUT THE CHRISTIANS TELL ME IT IS NO LONGER NESSECARY!!! I GEUSS JESUS FAILED?!?!

Small point, but it shows a massive amount of oversight on the part of the Christians.

Kilgore Trout

I just explained how jesus was a completely invalid sin sacrifice so I think the mold stuff is the least of their oversights.

Aerik Von

I know, I know. I am just waiting for an arguement from the other side...damn my toes itch. Maybe I should resort to some good ole' pagan soap!

Doctor X

Pagan soap?

Does that require human sacrifice?

--J.D.

Kilgore Trout

I think they're too busy burying their heads in the sand. Hey... maybe that's where the cure for fungus is buried!