Freethought & Rationalism Archive

MortalWombat · 02-27-2002, 08:59 AM

Let me ask you something, Corwin. What is your definition of Ki? Is it proper mechanics leading to correct technique? Is it some kind of visualization excercise? Is it some kind of energy force? Or something else? Is Ki something new that needs to be explored, or is Ki a redefinition (or grouping) of current processes that are already understood?

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]</p>

Corwin · 02-27-2002, 09:30 AM

Mortal, get back to me when 'traditional medicine' has records dating back 2500 years.

As far as Ki is concerned, part of it is technique and visualization. Not all of it tho. Part of Aikido is just manipulating forces... (inertia is your friend.... use it...) There is more to it than that tho, and I really don't have a specific explanation for it. There is an 'energy' involved. Maybe it's some mystical 'spirit,' maybe it's some sort of interaction on the quantum level that we don't entirely understand, maybe it's something totally different. If I knew, I'd say. Of course I'll keep trying to figure it out... but in the meantime, 'understanding is not required.'

bluefugue · 02-27-2002, 10:29 AM

Just to be clear on this, do you think your ability to throw a person twice your size cannot be explained using traditional Newtonian physics?

Corwin · 02-27-2002, 10:52 AM

Have you ever tried it?

Some of what's done can be explained with classical physics. Not all of it tho.

TollHouse · 02-27-2002, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Have you ever tried it?

Actually, yes. I've done it several times in Judo. Even big fellas have a centre of gravity. (Thank you Newton)

Corwin · 02-27-2002, 11:07 AM

And what about throwing them from a kneeling position?

Judo in this country is a sport. You don't get into the deeper stuff unless you study it in Japan, and even then they tend to be rather shallow...

Let's take an exercise.

Sit seiza, facing nage. (Your partner, the one who takes the fall.)

Lower your arms, allow your partner to grab your wrists. Flex your arms and twist. Your partner is now behind you, flat on his back. Yes, part of it can be explained with traditional physics... but you shouldn't be able to get enough force to do it from a dead stop. But it works. I've done it.

Francois Tremblay · 02-27-2002, 01:06 PM

Corwin, you sound about as gullible as the people who do the "five people lifting a person with one finger" trick and think it's magical.

I guess this now explains why you believe in pseudo-science. Don't you realize that without any objective evidence except one eminently partisan study, you sound just like any other trickster ? Spurious statements like "Ki works" only evokes laughter in educated people.

Although this exhortation is probably futile, please be serious here and act like a skeptic, not a child.

[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

Corwin · 02-27-2002, 01:13 PM

Go find a dojo and watch.

The reason I got into Zen was simple... when I demanded proof from christians I got lectures about faith.

When I demanded proof from my Sensei, I got it.

Bookman · 02-27-2002, 01:29 PM

At least we now have clear and convincing evidence that atheist != skeptic, and that as a group we're not wholly immune to magical thinking.

So much to do, and so little time...

Bookman

Corwin · 02-27-2002, 01:33 PM

Actually I'm quite a skeptic.

Skepticism doesn't mean doggedly insisting that 'this isn't possible' when faced with a reality that doesn't match what you percieve how reality 'should be.' As a scientist at heart, I am humble before fact. The FACT here, is that it works. Can I explain why? Nope. Does that matter? Also nope.

I can't describe relativity in great detail either.... does this mean it doesn't work?

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02-27-2002, 08:59 AM	#41
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	Let me ask you something, Corwin. What is your definition of Ki? Is it proper mechanics leading to correct technique? Is it some kind of visualization excercise? Is it some kind of energy force? Or something else? Is Ki something new that needs to be explored, or is Ki a redefinition (or grouping) of current processes that are already understood? [ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: MortalWombat ]</p>

02-27-2002, 09:30 AM	#42
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Mortal, get back to me when 'traditional medicine' has records dating back 2500 years. As far as Ki is concerned, part of it is technique and visualization. Not all of it tho. Part of Aikido is just manipulating forces... (inertia is your friend.... use it...) There is more to it than that tho, and I really don't have a specific explanation for it. There is an 'energy' involved. Maybe it's some mystical 'spirit,' maybe it's some sort of interaction on the quantum level that we don't entirely understand, maybe it's something totally different. If I knew, I'd say. Of course I'll keep trying to figure it out... but in the meantime, 'understanding is not required.'

02-27-2002, 10:29 AM	#43
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	Just to be clear on this, do you think your ability to throw a person twice your size cannot be explained using traditional Newtonian physics?

02-27-2002, 10:52 AM	#44
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Have you ever tried it? Some of what's done can be explained with classical physics. Not all of it tho.

02-27-2002, 11:07 AM	#46
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	And what about throwing them from a kneeling position? Judo in this country is a sport. You don't get into the deeper stuff unless you study it in Japan, and even then they tend to be rather shallow... Let's take an exercise. Sit seiza, facing nage. (Your partner, the one who takes the fall.) Lower your arms, allow your partner to grab your wrists. Flex your arms and twist. Your partner is now behind you, flat on his back. Yes, part of it can be explained with traditional physics... but you shouldn't be able to get enough force to do it from a dead stop. But it works. I've done it.

02-27-2002, 01:06 PM	#47
Francois Tremblay Banned Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Montreal, QC Canada Posts: 876	Corwin, you sound about as gullible as the people who do the "five people lifting a person with one finger" trick and think it's magical. I guess this now explains why you believe in pseudo-science. Don't you realize that without any objective evidence except one eminently partisan study, you sound just like any other trickster ? Spurious statements like "Ki works" only evokes laughter in educated people. Although this exhortation is probably futile, please be serious here and act like a skeptic, not a child. [ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Franc28 ]</p>

02-27-2002, 01:13 PM	#48
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Go find a dojo and watch. The reason I got into Zen was simple... when I demanded proof from christians I got lectures about faith. When I demanded proof from my Sensei, I got it.

02-27-2002, 01:29 PM	#49
Bookman Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Nashville, TN, USA Posts: 2,210	At least we now have clear and convincing evidence that atheist != skeptic, and that as a group we're not wholly immune to magical thinking. So much to do, and so little time... Bookman

02-27-2002, 01:33 PM	#50
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Actually I'm quite a skeptic. Skepticism doesn't mean doggedly insisting that 'this isn't possible' when faced with a reality that doesn't match what you percieve how reality 'should be.' As a scientist at heart, I am humble before fact. The FACT here, is that it works. Can I explain why? Nope. Does that matter? Also nope. I can't describe relativity in great detail either.... does this mean it doesn't work?

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