Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Liquidrage · 12-23-2002, 06:47 PM

I was also in the military and while in I knew a few gay people that were also in.
It didn't bother me but there were some people that it would have bothered so it was kept a secret from them.

My opinion is that the military should not care what someone's sexual preference is. They should just set a date in the not to distant future and change their policy.

But it's not going to happen because the military is too entwined with conservative Xianism and also entwined with the government which is also itself entwined with conservative Xianism.

Autonemesis · 12-23-2002, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neo:
If you had a plumbing problem, would you call an electrician (who has absolutely no knowledge and/or experience in plumbing) or a plumber (who has the knowledge and experience in plumbing)? Obviously the electrician doesn't have the knowledge or the experience of being a plumber. Therefore, you would call the plumber.

Hence, there is nothing fallacious about getting the right tradesman to do the right job.

But you're not being asked to counsel on how to kill people and break things, Neo. You're in a discussion about how to relate to other people who may or may not make you feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason. Everybody has experience with this and so everybody is qualified to give their opinions.

Just Another Infidel · 12-23-2002, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:


Here's why you haven't heard it. 50 years ago they were saying the same thing:

"One thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is the threat of physical harm to negroes. Some of the military population come from extremely intolerant environments and would welcome an opportunity to seriously injure a negro. When an incident like this happens, it costs the military time and money not to mention bad press."

Do I need to explain any further why this argument fails to persuade, whether its about blacks or gays? If it's a call to inaction, it's repugnant. If it's a call for patience, it's easy to mistake it for something else.

No, no need to explain any further (for my benefit anyway). I'm not trying to persuade, I'm not calling for inaction and I'm not calling for patience. I was responding to the original post which asked for information or opinions.

FWIW, I'm sure the military will eventually come around to accepting gays without qualifications. But it won't happen until U.S. society in general becomes much more tolerant of gays.

Was that argument really used 50 years ago about racial integration? There was still a lot of racial tension in the U.S. Navy in the early 70's but it greatly decreased after the draft ended. Maybe significant social changes do warrant patience.

JAI

Just Another Infidel · 12-23-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Liquidrage:
My opinion is that the military should not care what someone's sexual preference is. They should just set a date in the not to distant future and change their policy.

But it's not going to happen because the military is too entwined with conservative Xianism and also entwined with the government which is also itself entwined with conservative Xianism.

I think it's worth remembering that the Department of Defense is lead by civilians and that the whole concept of a military in the U.S. is that it is a tool of the elected leadership to effect foreign policy.

Sure, the military leadership has opinions and it may resist change, but ultimately our elected officials call the shots on major policy decisions.

JAI

Neo · 12-24-2002, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kind Bud:
Originally posted by Neo:
If you had a plumbing problem, would you call an electrician (who has absolutely no knowledge and/or experience in plumbing) or a plumber (who has the knowledge and experience in plumbing)? Obviously the electrician doesn't have the knowledge or the experience of being a plumber. Therefore, you would call the plumber.

Hence, there is nothing fallacious about getting the right tradesman to do the right job.

But you're not being asked to counsel on how to kill people and break things, Neo. You're in a discussion about how to relate to other people who may or may not make you feel uncomfortable, for whatever reason.

What you quoted and replied to was merely an analogy in rebuttal to Celsus' unsubstaniated allegation that my statement of those not serving couldn't fully understand/comprehend the situation was an argumentum ad hominem.

Quote:

Everybody has experience with this and so everybody is qualified to give their opinions.

No, everybody does not have experience in the military let alone what it means for gays to be gay in the military. Those who have not served in the armed forces can only offer subjective opinions as they simply do not have first had knowledge and/or experience. The only objectivity they would have is by vicarious knowledge and experience (i.e., a friend or family member in the service who is either gay or knows someone who is gay, published reports, news articles, etc.). Even then their opinion would still be subjective.

Neo

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Neo ]

Bree · 12-24-2002, 08:39 AM

So sorry for hitting a nerve, Neo, but I was simply imitating your personal posting style.

See where you ridicule Loren, here - you're saying that because he doesn't have the same experiences as you, he can't possibly "understand" where you're coming from:

Quote:

5 months among (civilian) friends does not even compare to the years of dicipline and close networking of personal and professional relationships one obtains while serving in the Armed Forces.

And here you are with Red Dave:

Quote:

Well, just as you said below...you've never served. So, you would never understand! Hence, your opinion is just plain crap and offensive to me.

<snip>

Like I said, you obviously don't know a damn thing about the military much less what it means to serve this country.

If you love your country SO much that you put yourself above everyone else who doesn't choose to show their patriotism in the same way you choose to show it, why do you continue to live amonst us? We're obviously not on your level.

Apparently you thought I made up the part where you said that people should be in the closet to protect them from homo-bashing military men. Here's your original quote, italics mine:

Quote:

It not only affects the moral (by breaking down and destroying that bond and degree of trust) of the platoon/company but it puts people at risk, especially the person who is discovered to be gay.

And here is something I just don't understand: I have lots of military friends who have served overseas etc. etc. They claim to be "ok" with gay people and are "upset" with the discrimination. But they still participate in the gay bashing with their buddies, and even if they aren't active participants, they "go along" with it, call people "fags" yadda yadda. If you really don't like something, then don't participate in it.

Gurdur · 12-24-2002, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Neo:
.....

No, everybody does not have experience in the military let alone what it means for gays to be gay in the military. Those who have not served in the armed forces can only offer subjective opinions as they simply do not have first had knowledge and/or experience. The only objectivity they would have is by vicarious knowledge and experience (i.e., a friend or family member in the service who is either gay or knows someone who is gay, published reports, news articles, etc.). Even then their opinion would still be subjective.

Neo

Neo, you would have been OK if you'ld only pointed out that those who have been in the military have greater experience with the problem; but now you're pretending that those with military experience have objective opinions on the matter, as opposed to the subjective opinions of those who have not served.
And you're completely wrong.

This is not only a practical question (and, in practice, there are several armed forces in the West that make no discrimination against gays) , it is also a moral question - and there is no such thing as an objective moral opinion.

avalanche:ix · 12-24-2002, 09:27 AM

am i the only one to find people like neo hilarious?

"we are teh military!"

who the hell cares? you make it sound like having been in the military is something to be proud of.
it really isn't. oh sure, the physique it builds can be quite impressive, but that's about it. it's certainly not something that warrants this obsessive need to ask everyone if they were ever in the military, as though not having been somehow invalidates their opinions.

as for gays in the militaries, i'll quote george carlin on this...

"ANYONE....DUMB enough, to wanna be in the military....should be let in"

Neo · 12-24-2002, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by avalanche:ix:
am i the only one to find people like neo hilarious?

Appeal to Ridicule

Quote:

"we are teh military!"

Straw Man

Quote:

who the hell cares?

Appeal to Ignorance

Quote:

you make it sound like having been in the military is something to be proud of.
it really isn't.

Appeal to Spite

Quote:

oh sure, the physique it builds can be quite impressive, but that's about it.

Red Herring

Quote:

it's certainly not something that warrants this obsessive need to ask everyone if they were ever in the military, as though not having been somehow invalidates their opinions.

Argumentum Ad Hominem and a Straw Man

Quote:

as for gays in the militaries, i'll quote george carlin on this...

"ANYONE....DUMB enough, to wanna be in the military....should be let in"

Do you feel better now?

Neo

PS. You're going to have to do a lot better than responding with fallacious arguments. They only serve to weaken your position and expose your true character.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Neo ]

Neo · 12-24-2002, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur:
Neo, you would have been OK if you'ld only pointed out that those who have been in the military have greater experience with the problem;

I already did in a previous posting.

Quote:

but now you're pretending

Who's pretending?

Quote:

...that those with military experience have objective opinions on the matter, as opposed to the subjective opinions of those who have not served.
And you're completely wrong.

No, I am not! Not everyone is controlled by their irrational side. There are a lot of intelligent people in the service with first hand knowledge and experience who can and do express objective opinions about this matter. As I am sure many civilians can be objective as well, but not from the perspective of the one who has served. Hence, first hand knowledge and experience vs. vicarious knowledge and experience.

In any case, of the responses I've read in this thread (and not only in response to me) sof ar I see little to no objectivity being expressed from those whom have not served. Just the usual emotional knee-jerk reactions like the recent posting by avalanche:ix.

Quote:

This is not only a practical question (and, in practice, there are several armed forces in the West that make no discrimination against gays) , it is also a moral question - and there is no such thing as an objective moral opinion.

No, this is not just a moral (moral opinions most certainly can be objective) question but a question of combat effectiveness, unit cohesion and civility. Which, as unfortunate as it may be to some, take precedence over the moral questionability of gays being allowed in the military openly.

The point and purpose of our armed forces are more important than one's feelings or sexual orientation. Your duty is to your country by doing your job, all else (i.e., personal feelings on sex, sexual orientation, etc.) is secondary.

Neo

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Neo ]

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12-23-2002, 06:47 PM	#91
Liquidrage Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,301	I was also in the military and while in I knew a few gay people that were also in. It didn't bother me but there were some people that it would have bothered so it was kept a secret from them. My opinion is that the military should not care what someone's sexual preference is. They should just set a date in the not to distant future and change their policy. But it's not going to happen because the military is too entwined with conservative Xianism and also entwined with the government which is also itself entwined with conservative Xianism.

12-24-2002, 09:27 AM	#98
avalanche:ix Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sin Capital, earth: (Amsterdam) Posts: 104	am i the only one to find people like neo hilarious? "we are teh military!" who the hell cares? you make it sound like having been in the military is something to be proud of. it really isn't. oh sure, the physique it builds can be quite impressive, but that's about it. it's certainly not something that warrants this obsessive need to ask everyone if they were ever in the military, as though not having been somehow invalidates their opinions. as for gays in the militaries, i'll quote george carlin on this... "ANYONE....DUMB enough, to wanna be in the military....should be let in"

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